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The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

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Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#21
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What can it do?

A couple days ago there was a post [1] on using an Atari 800 in a modern setting which is a few years older than the TRS-80 [2], 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30033895 2. https://www.auvik.com/franklyit/blog/atari-800-online/

That article is about an Atari 800XE which was far newer than a TRS-80 to begin and was then heavily modified with a 20x faster CPU and 20x the original RAM.

Really that article has zero relevance to my question.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#22
The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless.

You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem?

Even software with long support for ancient machines eventually find it impossible to support older hardware, so you would be stuck with whatever the last release of software was available and likely any vendor would be long dead.

Machines don't age out because they stop working, they simply become obsolete to the surrounding environment. The article glosses over this problem by saying you could stick to simple use cases like email or word processing, but if you can't transfer the data off the machine, you are boned.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#23

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

A project like this would be interesting for a computer that controls some other long lived thing, like an industrial control computer. There is an awful number of old beige boxes running Windows 95 controlling some very expensive machinery. The lack of software updates is not a problem (until somebody tries to introduce IIoT...), but finding replacement parts can become quite difficult.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#24
It does feel dangerous, somehow, doesn't it, to have the web of technology be so complex? Even something like an automobile- once cars were simple enough that you could take them apart, put them back together, and have a decent chance of doing it right. But now the parts and the computer controlled systems are so complex that you really can't. All the equipment that got left in Afghanistan is a case in point: the Afghan government could never use it, because it was too tightly tied into the whole US infrastructure and support network. Without the satellites and the special maintenance crews it was all useless. Whereas the Taliban had antique gear left over from the Soviet Union, and it was repairable, and it worked.

Joseph Tainter actually links this exact phenomenon to the collapse of civilizations. The theory is that every time a society reaches a crisis, they tend to solve it by making infrastructure and social systems more complex. But more complex means it needs more energy, more education, more expensive maintenance to run. Eventually things reach a tipping point where the social systems are so complicated that adding to the complexity actually makes things worse instead of better. At that point the high energy equilibrium point is unstable, and the system must shift down to a lower complexity equilibrium that requires less energy - oftentimes, much lower. This manifests as collapse. It would be fascinating if this desire that you see manifested often in popular culture for things to be simpler, less systematized (homesteading, anger at government and banks, calls for degrowth) was some kind of subconscious understanding that things were approaching just such a tipping point.

So I get the sentiment. At the same time, our devices are really only useful because of the networks of servers and the billion dollar chip fabs that make them. You can't have something like the modern internet without all that stuff. So I don't see this really working, at least in the short term. That said, you can do a lot of interesting stuff with a low powered machine, and I'd love to play around with one. It would probably run a unix shell just fine. Not sure about emacs though..

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#25
I think this is a noble idea. One thing that makes it difficult is that a computer is designed to execute arbitrary programs. People will always be tempted to "improve" whatever the specification is for this forever computer.

A related thing to think about is what it would take so we don't lose the ability to view old documents or run old programs. Presumable header info in documents, saving versions of programs and having emulators for old machines would by part of the solution. I'm not sure if it would be worth the effort to enact, but it is probably worth thinking about.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#26
post #23

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

A project like this would be interesting for a computer that controls some other long lived thing, like an industrial control computer. There is an awful number of old beige boxes running Windows 95 controlling some very expensive machinery. The lack of software updates is not a problem (until somebody tries to introduce IIoT...), but finding replacement parts can become quite difficult.

There is a small business near me that has a wool testing machine that absolutely relies on custom DOS 3.3 based software and an old school serial card. They have had to become very astute at picking up old parts to keep their old rigs running as the guy who wrote the control software passed on, and they don't want to invest money in rewriting it. You would think commodity hardware would run this setup but all attempts at shifting it have failed.

The problem with old electronics is that once the chips fall out of fashion, you are never getting replacement parts. Does anybody still manufacture DDR2 ram for example? Its just not that long ago it got replaced by DDR3 and DDR4 but in 10 short years if you need a couple of sticks of it, your only option is 2nd hand. The e-waste issue is very real and the relentless pace of change doesn't help, but I don't have a good answer for solving it.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#27
post #9

> For most typewriters, restoration is only a matter of taking the time to do it. There’s no complex skills or tools involved. Even the most difficult operations could be learned alone, by simple trial and error. What. Let's say an internal piece failed because of mechanical stress caused by lack of lubrication or a jammed foreign object. How do you figure out "by simple trial and error" which piece failed, why it fa…

> Why it failed.

Out of scope. You just want to get it working again and don't care if you have to replace the same piece in another 5 years. Maybe that is not a "proper" repair, but you can do it yourself.

> which piece failed

Everything is large enough and mechanical failures are obvious enough that you see what is broken (maybe that part that is literally broken into pieces).

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#28
post #25

I think this is a noble idea. One thing that makes it difficult is that a computer is designed to execute arbitrary programs. People will always be tempted to "improve" whatever the specification is for this forever computer. A related thing to think about is what it would take so we don't lose the ability to view old documents or run old programs. Presumable header info in documents, saving versions of programs and…

The emulation scene is now so good this seems like a solved problem. KVM/QEMU are simply amazing.

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#29
post #9

> For most typewriters, restoration is only a matter of taking the time to do it. There’s no complex skills or tools involved. Even the most difficult operations could be learned alone, by simple trial and error. What. Let's say an internal piece failed because of mechanical stress caused by lack of lubrication or a jammed foreign object. How do you figure out "by simple trial and error" which piece failed, why it fa…

    > How do you figure out "by simple trial and error" which piece failed, why it failed, what the original piece was supposed to look like, and finally repair it, without expert knowledge and precision tools?
Agreed. Restoration of an already usable typewriter might be that simple, but if any of the 2000 parts is damaged or missing good luck finding or fabricating a replacement. (Also good luck finding a service manual!) I love typewriters, I use and collect them, and I've taken a few of them apart for maintenance or repair, and in my experience the mechanisms are too complex to suffer much trial and error without risking further damage.

While reading I couldn't help but notice that the ForeverComputer sounds a lot like a TRS-80 (or indeed many personal computers of the late 70s-early 80s). A TRS-80 CoCo could, with some clever extensions and stretching of the rules, fulfill most of the listed requirements. Plus it's already 42 years old, so it only has 8 more to go!

Re: The computer built to last 50 years (2021)

#30

The major problem I see with this is that while the computer itself might still boot, the world around it will have changed so radically it will effectively be useless. You can see this with machines much younger than 50 years, they can't support the encryption required by most modern websites, interfaces age out of regular use: used a 24 pin parallel port lately? How about a modem? Even software with long support fo…

Good point. Maybe this ForeverComputer could get a swappable component that does the connecting and encrypting? Kinda like you can SSH into a supercomputer from a Raspberry Pi and pretend your Pi itself has all that power.
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