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Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

economist.com

21–30 of 74 posts

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#21

It’s weird how the article does not give any example of languages that did spread and become dominant without any coercion. They do exist: Swahili and Lingala for instance. They mostly spread through trade and as « neutral » language used to communicate between ethnic groups (with their own language).

I am not sure about Lingala but Swahili absolutely spread through coercion in colonial times and post independence. In Tanzania the Germans and later the British heavily promoted Swahili as a lingua franca.

Nowadays Swahili is the first language of most Tanzanians but in the past it was mainly limited to coastal areas formerly controlled by the Sultanate of Oman. The government of Tanzania promotes Swahili to this day, and many native languages in the interior of the country are declining.

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#22
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For some reason, the entire anglosphere[1] is just plain bad at language education[2]. That's not to say that learning a new language is easy, of course. It's just that we aren't even really trying. The anglosphere is perfectly willing to just sit and make the rest of the world speak our language. Is this fair framing? Doesn't it seem likely that English speaking countries are bad at learning languages precisely be…

I kinda think that the lingua Franca, is very sticky. Think base 10 or the Gregorian calendar or QWERTY . None of these are the only or even best solution but they are going to all stick around forever just because it will never make sense to change them.

[deleted]

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#23
post #20
post #18

The spread of Russian in Ukraine fits this model (coercion to establish dominance, then continued spread without coercion) very well. Urban areas in the East and Center became Russian-speaking through Soviet measures like mixing nationalities at work/army to force them to use Russian. There were other coersive measures like the central planning not providing not enough Ukrainian media (only folk music programs on TV…

Similar changes happened in Japan (Ainu and Okinawan languages displaced by Japanese) and Taiwan (Taiwanese language displaced by Chinese). In this aspect, I credit India for not coercing a national language to displace regional languages. But then such unification of languages may be a contributing factor to keeping country together and alleviate regionalism.

Regarding India, I am not exactly sure if any credits are in order. Oh they tried, they tried hard. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hindi_agitations_of_Tam...

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda think that the lingua Franca, is very sticky. Think base 10 or the Gregorian calendar or QWERTY . None of these are the only or even best solution but they are going to all stick around forever just because it will never make sense to change them.

Yep. Latin was the lingua franca (or at least one of the major ones) in Europe until 1800 or so, more than 1000 years after the fall of the western Roman Empire.

Was Latin really the lingua franca, or just the language of liturgy, over that period?

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#25
post #18

The spread of Russian in Ukraine fits this model (coercion to establish dominance, then continued spread without coercion) very well. Urban areas in the East and Center became Russian-speaking through Soviet measures like mixing nationalities at work/army to force them to use Russian. There were other coersive measures like the central planning not providing not enough Ukrainian media (only folk music programs on TV…

It starts well before Soviet times: Wikipedia says the Ukrainian language was banned in the Russian Empire starting in 1804 when what is now Eastern, Central and Southern Ukraine were part of the Russian Empire.

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#27
The keyword here is incentive, not coercion. Most of the world uses English as a second language because the British used to run a fairly large part of it and most of their former colonies still have a lot of English speakers and quite a few even maintain it as an official language. And then after two world wars, their former colony the USA of course became a super power. So, for the past few centuries, understanding English meant access to a large market where English just was the main language to do business.

There is an enormous economic incentive to do business in English as it gives you access to these huge markets with wealthy customers. Additionally, a lot of content is published by English speakers, which re-enforces the need to learn English. Finally because pretty much every country does at least some business in English, it's also the most common language for any two countries that wish to engage with each other.

I'm actually Dutch but I live in Germany. While I speak a little bit of German, my English is far better. I don't actually need German to do business in Berlin; so I don't use it a lot I have no economic incentive to learn it. There's a critical mass of foreigners here that mostly speak English far better than they speak German. And while some Germans don't like that, a lot of them don't mind it and actually move to Berlin because they speak English and because is so international. You see this dynamic in a lot of economically important cities across the world. As soon as you get any concentration of foreigners living in them, English becomes an important language to the point where the locals start using English to be able to keep up.

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment about people in Germany not picking up German surprised me. I don’t have a ton of first-hand experience, but my impression has been that it was more of necessity there than other European countries.

I’ve visited Berlin three times and most people I interacted with spoke English perfectly. The English level was about as high as in Montreal. Perhaps it’s different if you live there and have to interact with more people; I’m not sure.

I did more than 20 trips to Germany for work in the 1990s and early 2000s (I'm American). Of course my work colleagues there spoke good English, as did the staff at the hotels I stayed at, museums and airports, but enough people did not (shop owners, some restaurants, agents at train stations) that it really helped me to learn at least enough German to order at restaurants and shops and struggle through basic conversations; I took classes and practiced when I could. Often a mixture of my bad, limited German and the person I was speaking to's bad, limited English got things handled.

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment about people in Germany not picking up German surprised me. I don’t have a ton of first-hand experience, but my impression has been that it was more of necessity there than other European countries.

I’ve visited Berlin three times and most people I interacted with spoke English perfectly. The English level was about as high as in Montreal. Perhaps it’s different if you live there and have to interact with more people; I’m not sure.

[deleted]

Re: Dominant languages can spread even without coercion

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Latin was the lingua franca (or at least one of the major ones) in Europe until 1800 or so, more than 1000 years after the fall of the western Roman Empire.

Was Latin really the lingua franca, or just the language of liturgy, over that period?

Latin was also the lingua franca of nobles and merchants. Lingua Franca Mediterrania itself, the language spoken by medieval sailors in Italy, Egypt, and nearly all the coastline of Mediterranean is a creole of Italian, Portuguese, and Arabic. To the point that Shakespearean Moors spoke it as "Arabic".

Then, the language of science until the 1900s is Latin. Isaac Newton wrote in Latin. Nearly all scientific papers and books were published in "Neolatin".

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