The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis • Hacker News Board

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#21

Post by version_five » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:02 PM UTC

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #4

dekhn wrote: post #2

I have trouble understanding why people post articles like this. IE, what's the ulterior motive? Is your goal to reduce trust in vaccines? A good faith attempt to show that there are a very small but detectable number of adverse outcomes from vaccines? Whatever it is: a paper like this doesn't demonstrate anything like that. It's a case observation with n=1 and it actually shows nothing of the sort. It's as close to…

Not the op, and didn't read the link, so no clue what it's validity. BUT will say again, I am pro vaccines and vaccinated, but I still think the possible side effects are being downplayed in the media/state. I posted in another thread, but after one month, I am still having issues that are for sure linked to my booster shot. No-one told me about any of these possible side effects, but after suffering from them, and t…

Putting aside why the OP would get worked up about someone sharing a journal article on social media...

I agree its important for public health organizations to be consistent in their messaging. It creates a lot of confusion if they are sending mixed messages about the pros/cons of vaccines, especially if there is some urgency. Where I am, there is information provided about the type and relative frequency of reactions, but it's not the main message and that makes sense.

For governments that are forcing people to be vaccinated (either directly or de-facto through restrictions on what you can otherwise do), it's purely a political thing. How could they admit that the thing they are forcing on you could cause reaction, even if it's rare. So they pretend that anyone who talks about it is a threat to society and whip up anger against them.

People are regularly willing to voluntarily take medicine with higher risks (birth control, travel vaccines, etc) and generally would make the same choice faced with covid. But take the choice away and the government has to carefully control the message about it (plus the whole opportunity to create division and an out-group to improve their political footing)

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#22

Post by onphonenow » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:11 PM UTC

Wow, that's a pretty compelling N=1 study. this guy goes from totally healthy to acute liver injury, each expression of illness and injury tied very closely to vaccine dose!

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#23

Post by odshoifsdhfs » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:12 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #16

throw10920 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue of side effects being downplayed by the media is entirely a response by public health and media to the large amount of disinformation about vaccines. That's your personal belief that may or may not be representative of reality. Another possible belief that one might have, that you can find evidence for in reality, is that side effects are being downplayed in order to push vaccine mandates through as a way…

If downplaying side effects had an overall greater outcome, would it be unethical and "obviously wrong"? Nothing is truly obviously wrong. In fact many things we think are obviously wrong, aren't. The ethics of these sorts of things are truly nontrivial. If you're suggesting we have hte vaccine policies we do so that pfizer etc profit, well I doubt I am going to convince you otherwise. I work in pharma, have a pretty…

> If downplaying side effects had an overall greater outcome, would it be unethical and "obviously wrong"?

Well, lets say that I will have the side effects for the rest of my life, or my kid (9y) will. So lying or hiding about the side effects is better for the big picture, and then fuck me/my kid? This is how you breed anti-vaxx and other people against goverment. 'We lied, but it was from your own good, sure, some suffered the consequenses of our lies, but hey, bars are open now, yay'

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#24

Post by ostenning » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:18 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #2

I have trouble understanding why people post articles like this. IE, what's the ulterior motive? Is your goal to reduce trust in vaccines? A good faith attempt to show that there are a very small but detectable number of adverse outcomes from vaccines? Whatever it is: a paper like this doesn't demonstrate anything like that. It's a case observation with n=1 and it actually shows nothing of the sort. It's as close to…

What is an n=1 study?

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#25

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:26 PM UTC

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #23

dekhn wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If downplaying side effects had an overall greater outcome, would it be unethical and "obviously wrong"? Nothing is truly obviously wrong. In fact many things we think are obviously wrong, aren't. The ethics of these sorts of things are truly nontrivial. If you're suggesting we have hte vaccine policies we do so that pfizer etc profit, well I doubt I am going to convince you otherwise. I work in pharma, have a pretty…

> If downplaying side effects had an overall greater outcome, would it be unethical and "obviously wrong"? Well, lets say that I will have the side effects for the rest of my life, or my kid (9y) will. So lying or hiding about the side effects is better for the big picture, and then fuck me/my kid? This is how you breed anti-vaxx and other people against goverment. 'We lied, but it was from your own good, sure, some…

But if 10 people suffer permanent consequences from Covid because they didn't push vaccines, then are they justified in pushing the vaccines?

Mind you, I'm not claiming that they are justified. Just that pro-vax side of the question is a lot more than "but bars are now open".

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#26

Post by mikem170 » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:28 PM UTC

onphonenow wrote: post #22

Wow, that's a pretty compelling N=1 study. this guy goes from totally healthy to acute liver injury, each expression of illness and injury tied very closely to vaccine dose!

Autoimmune issues, including those related to vaccines, are not well understood.

I looked into this when I saw that many people were having covid-like adverse reactions to the vaccines. The only thing I found was that when the immune system is activated that collateral damage is possible.

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#27

Post by dekhn » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:29 PM UTC

ostenning wrote: post #24

dekhn wrote: post #2

I have trouble understanding why people post articles like this. IE, what's the ulterior motive? Is your goal to reduce trust in vaccines? A good faith attempt to show that there are a very small but detectable number of adverse outcomes from vaccines? Whatever it is: a paper like this doesn't demonstrate anything like that. It's a case observation with n=1 and it actually shows nothing of the sort. It's as close to…

What is an n=1 study?

This paper is based on a single patient. Normally, in any sort of health study, you want to work with a large population for statistical reasons. However, for many practical reasons (such a very rare event like this) you can't do that. While there are statistical techniques to deal with small n studies ("If nobody dies, did anything go wrong?" from Glantz's stats book), mainstream science never makes a strong assertion (as this paper does) of causality. My read of the paper does not find any evidence truly supporting their assertion, but this isn't really uncommon, doctors publish case reports like this all the time with the hope that they're the first person to actually report on a real problem (and hope all the other times they reported are conveniently ignored).

And, of course, as a truly honest scientist, I will say: it's entirely possible they did find a situation where it occurred. It may be that all my complaining is actually against a legitimate problem. But, to be honest, when all the data is evaluated holistically, it is unlikely that this is a major concern. And the real problem is that somebody is going to go share this with some website that publishes "COVID vaccine causes hepatitus" and then a whole bunch of people won't get vaccinated.

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#28

Post by onphonenow » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:35 PM UTC

mikem170 wrote: post #26

onphonenow wrote: post #22

Wow, that's a pretty compelling N=1 study. this guy goes from totally healthy to acute liver injury, each expression of illness and injury tied very closely to vaccine dose!

Autoimmune issues, including those related to vaccines, are not well understood. I looked into this when I saw that many people were having covid-like adverse reactions to the vaccines. The only thing I found was that when the immune system is activated that collateral damage is possible.

Right - they point out the pathway. It does sound like you might have hepatitis already, so the vaccine is just in injury pathway. Or you might have some other (small) issue and immune response makes it a big one. I find this a bit plausible because the vaccine is designed to trigger an immune response (generally).

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#29

Post by finite_jest » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:36 PM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #16

throw10920 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue of side effects being downplayed by the media is entirely a response by public health and media to the large amount of disinformation about vaccines. That's your personal belief that may or may not be representative of reality. Another possible belief that one might have, that you can find evidence for in reality, is that side effects are being downplayed in order to push vaccine mandates through as a way…

If downplaying side effects had an overall greater outcome, would it be unethical and "obviously wrong"? Nothing is truly obviously wrong. In fact many things we think are obviously wrong, aren't. The ethics of these sorts of things are truly nontrivial. If you're suggesting we have hte vaccine policies we do so that pfizer etc profit, well I doubt I am going to convince you otherwise. I work in pharma, have a pretty…

Not many of us are strict utilitarians. Also, people generally don't like being lied to, and I think this kind of pandering will accelerate the erosion of trust in institutions.

On pharma, they are obviously a business, and profits are of course a major consideration. I'm sure many people who work in pharma have other incentives too (like making world a healthier place, as you suggested). However, that certainly doesn't mean the correct framing is to see pharma companies as entirely altruistic.

Re: The Moderna vaccine can cause immune-mediated hepatitis

#30

Post by odshoifsdhfs » Thu, Jan 13, 2022, 10:36 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #25

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If downplaying side effects had an overall greater outcome, would it be unethical and "obviously wrong"? Well, lets say that I will have the side effects for the rest of my life, or my kid (9y) will. So lying or hiding about the side effects is better for the big picture, and then fuck me/my kid? This is how you breed anti-vaxx and other people against goverment. 'We lied, but it was from your own good, sure, some…

But if 10 people suffer permanent consequences from Covid because they didn't push vaccines, then are they justified in pushing the vaccines? Mind you, I'm not claiming that they are justified. Just that pro-vax side of the question is a lot more than "but bars are now open".

I am not against pushing vaccines. But if hiding/lying is the way they are doing, is it worth it? Will the public ever trust them again?

Let's say (as an experiment) we know that 10% of people will have life-long problems if they take the vaccine, BUT hiding this fact means that 90% of the population will probably take the vaccine and thus, 'saving' a lot of people. Is it ok to 'sacrifice' 10% for the remaining 90%? (I know the values are less, but the questions is, where we draw the line where we should 'hide' things or not). I still hope the side effects will go away, but after one month, this has serious implications in my life, and I feel betrayed for not being informed on the side effects correctly. And for sure, I will not have any other boosters, no matter what mandates or what else they will come up with, and right now, I am recommending others not to get the booster after my experience (maybe wrong, but my experience and suffering trumps any 'greater good' that may put my close friends/family at risk)