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Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#21

Post by williamdclt »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #9
bluGill wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because some books are more valuable than others. You might enjoy Harry Potter, but if your only copy of a calculus 101 is deteriorating you will erase Harry Potter and copy the calculus text over the top to save the more important calculus book - or maybe you would erase the calculus textbook to copy Harry Potter over the top. This is a statement of relative value when paper is scarce, but it doesn't mean they didn'…

There's a third way. You combine the best halves of calculus and Harry Potter into one book. It'll be more difficult to understand, but managing so grants one the best of both worlds.

It's probably how "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" (an actual real thing) came about.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#22

Post by newsbinator »

jcranmer wrote: post #19
newsbinator wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy is reasonable, although it breaks down because human languages are not nearly as varied in usefulness for different things as programming languages are. Human languages are much more generalized. Sure, you can find domain-specific examples of one human language being preferable to another though, like when Korean Air forced all its pilots to communicate in English, even Korean->Korean pilots, because in E…

> On a country-level, we've successfully normalized a given language across large populations and large geographies. Often without involving genocide or prison camps. Well, what do you call beating school children for not speaking the "proper" language? Because that's basically the minimum you need to do (see: US, Canada, France for specific examples).

We don't need to beat school children to get them to do all sorts of things they'd rather not do. Currently we get most school children trained to be effective factory workers and low-grade administrative assistants by age 14~16 without beating any of them.

People used to beat school children all the time. They used to beat minorities and torture people who have developmental problems.

We don't do that anymore, and we still find ways of achieving our aims.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#23

Post by tbonesteaks »

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

You have a very fascinating point of view. I never thought of it that way before. But, from what I understand, the Tower of Babel isn’t a problem to be solved. It was a solution to the problem you want to introduce. Not disagreeing with your points exactly, but it is very interesting dichotomy you’ve introduced.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#24

Post by newsbinator »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #18
newsbinator wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The analogy is reasonable, although it breaks down because human languages are not nearly as varied in usefulness for different things as programming languages are. Human languages are much more generalized. Sure, you can find domain-specific examples of one human language being preferable to another though, like when Korean Air forced all its pilots to communicate in English, even Korean->Korean pilots, because in E…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#25

Post by huachimingo »

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Godwin's Law for language discussion:

Consider the language Esperanto for universal candidate. /s

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#26

Post by kartikay26 »

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

I don’t think we need to put in extra “effort” to make it happen, it’s already happening - and English is becoming the default global language. Knowing English is an advantage in most jobs all over the world and it seems the percentage of English speakers in the world is increasing over time.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#27

Post by yboris »

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Language is a way of thought. Languages come with their own quirks, and just like [plant] monoculture is bad for an ecosystem, so would a single language. Since I was born in Russia and came to the US (thus becoming fluent in both languages), and especially after reading the book "Metaphors we live by" I see how language forces certain concepts on us. Having a variety of languages is a benefit, despite introducing problems.

As of now, English has become the de-facto universal language: in many countries it's the #1 most-studied foreign language in schools. I don't see a problem with having English (or another language) be everyone's 2nd language for better global communication.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#28

Post by KineticLensman »

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

Implementing a new global language is akin to a standardization process. From my experience in standardization (several years supporting SISO [0]), standardization is a very expensive and time consuming activity, even when the participants can see obvious benefits. Creating a new global language - and then adopting it - would have a massive opportunity cost - that could be better spent in trying to deal with higher priority problems such as global heating.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_Interoperability_St...

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#29

Post by newsbinator »

kartikay26 wrote: post #26
newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

I don’t think we need to put in extra “effort” to make it happen, it’s already happening - and English is becoming the default global language. Knowing English is an advantage in most jobs all over the world and it seems the percentage of English speakers in the world is increasing over time.

That's true, it's going in that direction. But that's like saying there's less Malaria year over year because we're naturally building cities and towns that displace mosquito habitats.

If we're going to agree that X is a problem and that we're happy the problem is naturally diminishing at some snail-like pace, then let's also agree to take direct action to solve X properly and now.

We're tackling the Malaria problem, with dollars and behavior changes. Let's tackle the Tower of Babel problem with dollars and behavior changes. English is an okay global language, for example, but its writing system is far from okay.

Re: Lost languages discovered in the oldest continuously run libraries (2017)

#30

Post by velcrovan »

newsbinator wrote: post #7

As someone who makes a hobby of learning languages, I am of the highly unpopular opinion that the world would be a better place if we could pick one easy-to-learn language (e.g. Malay) and one super-simple writing system (e.g. South Korean Hangul) and get our species out of the dark ages of having thousands of mutually unintelligible languages. No-one in their right mind would create an ethical, functioning modern so…

> No-one in their right mind would create […] society

Right. Because societies are emergent things that arise from masses of people, not products of an individual’s design preferences.

That’s not to say that we might not eventually get to one language. But it won’t be because of illiterate* ideals expressed through technocratic meddling.

(* — “Illiterate” in its original sense: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2012/05/03/rediscovering-)literac...)

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