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When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

nytimes.com

21–30 of 176 posts

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#21
post #10

> “The chance of breast cancer is so low, so why are you doing it? I think it’s purely a marketing thing.” This mindset is ingrained in every doctor I speak to, but I think it's just so wrong. Take DiGeorge syndrome. You have a 1/4000 chance of having it, and the test carries an 81% chance of a false positive. The above doctor calls this "marketing"? Foolishness. That's an incredibly useful test. The downside is smal…

> We do a good job with breast and prostate screens

Do we? Unless I'm missing something, breast cancer is a huge killer and PSA tests are deeply imperfect. I am very much not expert in these areas.

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#22
Edit: They kind of do this farther down in the article.

Considering this as a UX challenge - imagine a grid of 10,000 dots (100x100).

Draw one box around the base rate - the rate at which you expect to find the problem in the population. If the base rate is 1%, then the box is 10x10 = 100 dots.

Then color in the dots for the test positive rate (not false positive, just all positive tests) False positives would be the colored dots outside the box.

Next to that, put strikes through the dots corresponding to your expected false negative rate.

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#23
post #6

Before my daughter was born I sometimes felt like it was the doctors job to scare us with every worse case scenario possible. It was quite stressful and upsetting.

The point of the profession is to find and address bad outcomes before they happen.

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be valuable for running some extra tests (possibly more expensive, but more accurate), but not for, say, decision to abort the kid, which is what usually "hangs in the air" after such a test result.

NIPT is not supposed to be used for termination decisions. A positive is meant to be “your baby might have this, test further with amniocentesis”.

The article in NYT nevertheless states:

"A 2014 study found that 6 percent of patients who screened positive obtained an abortion without getting another test to confirm the result."

Maybe people aren't informed enough. It is my experience that some doctors tend to cut conversations short and some people are shy/insecure enough not to pry answers out of them.

In this case, that would be a tragedy, given that statistically 5 of those 6 aborted fetuses were healthy.

Edit: I found the following comment in the comment section of this article, which appears to address the same issue:

I am a physician with a PhD in Biomedical Informatics. Most patients who receive these tests do not see a maternal fetal medicine doctor or genetic counselor, and no one actually explains that the tests they are receiving are “screening” or “diagnostic.” Your opinion that this article does a disservice to patients reflects your unrealistic assumption that most of the doctors ordering these tests are actually communicating effectively with patients (or frankly, even understand the tests themselves). In my experience, they usually aren’t/don’t. Articles like this “fill the gap” on patient education when doctors are unable to explain math and risk (i.e., most of the time).

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#25
post #20

How did this article, written by someone who clearly lacks an understanding of basic statistics, make it into the Upshot? They try to make it seem like the test is wrong 85% of the time, but that's not necessarily the case. All we know from the article is that 85 / 100 positive results are false positives, which means the test could actually be quite accurate. If the test correctly identifies 100% of real cases, then…

Their infographics convince me that they understand the statistics. But one of the key issues here is that the statistics are radically counterintuitive in a way that most people don't understand - the patients, the testing companies, and even some medical staff all incorrectly believe that a positive test for a rare condition means you probably have the condition.

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#26
My wife and I went through this a couple of years ago, with a 10 week NIPT calling a rare trisomy (chr 9), which is always fatal within a few weeks of birth.

It was absolute hell. The key problem here is the waiting and uncertainty. You have the NIPT at 10w, but you can’t have the amniocentesis until several weeks later. When that came back fine, there were questions about whether it was a “mosaic” meaning only a small proportion of cells are effected. We were only really in the clear after the 20 week ultrasound.

That’s a lot of weeks to be consumed by wondering about whether to terminate the pregnancy, or wait it out for more information. I have a masters in bioinformatics (in genomics!) and my knowledge of stats and the science was next to useless in the face of these decisions.

I know of couples who simply couldn’t deal with this uncertainty and chose to terminate on the basis of this test alone.

Fortunately for us our child was fine and is a perfectly healthy 18 month old now, but I wouldn’t do the rare trisomy test again.

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#27
post #6

Before my daughter was born I sometimes felt like it was the doctors job to scare us with every worse case scenario possible. It was quite stressful and upsetting.

I had rather my doctor be upfront about all possible scenarios than to be try and nice about them and save possible information.

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#28
post #10

> “The chance of breast cancer is so low, so why are you doing it? I think it’s purely a marketing thing.” This mindset is ingrained in every doctor I speak to, but I think it's just so wrong. Take DiGeorge syndrome. You have a 1/4000 chance of having it, and the test carries an 81% chance of a false positive. The above doctor calls this "marketing"? Foolishness. That's an incredibly useful test. The downside is smal…

> We do a good job with breast and prostate screens Do we? Unless I'm missing something, breast cancer is a huge killer and PSA tests are deeply imperfect. I am very much not expert in these areas.

[deleted]

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#29
post #15
post #9

This article is a confused mess. It's something of a Gish gallop in conflating all the different issues they could come up with, while leaving out all the necessary vocabulary (C-f "Bayes" "posterior" "decision theory" [Phrase not found]) making it almost impossible to consider each issue in adequate detail. It mixes up poor communication (reporting false-positive/negative rates as if posterior probabilities, & exagg…

They even missed "base rate", which is the way I usually see this explained to ordinary people without stats backgrounds. Really disappointing.

They don't use that specific term, but the Down syndrome infographic does a pretty solid job at explaining the base rate issue.

Re: When they warn of rare disorders, these prenatal tests are usually wrong

#30
post #20

How did this article, written by someone who clearly lacks an understanding of basic statistics, make it into the Upshot? They try to make it seem like the test is wrong 85% of the time, but that's not necessarily the case. All we know from the article is that 85 / 100 positive results are false positives, which means the test could actually be quite accurate. If the test correctly identifies 100% of real cases, then…

Their infographics convince me that they understand the statistics. But one of the key issues here is that the statistics are radically counterintuitive in a way that most people don't understand - the patients, the testing companies, and even some medical staff all incorrectly believe that a positive test for a rare condition means you probably have the condition.

Their graphics say the tests are “84% wrong.” Do you really feel that’s an accurate description? That doesn’t feel like an accurate description to me, and their usage of “wrong” in this context highlights that they don’t understand the distinction and importance of true positives, false positives, true negatives, and false negatives when measuring accuracy.
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