Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

utcc.utoronto.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 255 posts

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#21

Post by i5heu »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #6
vital_beach wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while I agree with the idea of emails that can't be arbitrarily shutdown, SSN-xx-HERE@citizen.gov sounds like all kinds of awful. It will either be instantly unusable or require a gov approved SPAM filter, both of which are bad. It also seems like a good vector to force a backdoor on all comms.

I think the issue (as in the what ) is that people should always be able to have a fallback option for sending and receiving email that's not at the whim of Google, MS et al. SSN-xx-HERE@citizen.gov is a how , which may or may not be a good one. For one, here in France, the SSN isn't as important as it seems to be in the US, so its being public is probably less of an issue. This approach would still be bad for spam o…

The same right about basic bank account is active in Germany. I have a few poor friends and it is amazing how important this right is. We need the same with internet-access and communication in general.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#22

Post by zekica »

lordnacho wrote: post #8
causi wrote: post #2

Email is our only reliable communication method between different organizations. I'm still of the opinion there should be public-option internet services. Everyone deserves an e-mail address that cannot be taken away from them without a court order.

But we also all need to eat and use a toilet to live. Those seem to be provided by the market to a reasonable degree. Email is also pretty cheap and there's at least some choice among providers, though of course far fewer that food types.

The reason there are as many food types is that you pay for food, while most people (except corporations) don't pay for email. This makes it so investments in food production can be returned without waiting for network effect / vendor lock-in to reach a significant level.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#23

Post by jiggunjer »

ejb999 wrote: post #5
causi wrote: post #2

Email is our only reliable communication method between different organizations. I'm still of the opinion there should be public-option internet services. Everyone deserves an e-mail address that cannot be taken away from them without a court order.

Is there somehow a lack of affordable - and in many cases free - email options that we need a government solution to this?

Cost aside, a solution needs to be highly available. Third party services can not guarantee your email will be available for the duration of your lifespan.

There is also the issue of data stewardship, (democratic) governments can ensure independent reviews and be held accountable for security breaches and data misuse. They could also be held liable for losses incurred by service defects.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#24

Post by causi »

jiggunjer wrote: post #11
causi wrote: post #2

Email is our only reliable communication method between different organizations. I'm still of the opinion there should be public-option internet services. Everyone deserves an e-mail address that cannot be taken away from them without a court order.

Define internet services, or do you mean email service? There are many decisions that impact the usability and cost of the service. Some people need high volume sending or large mailbox storage. Do you punish people for sending spam? Do you filter spam, if so, how. Do people need public terminals to access the service? Etc.

I'm not saying it should be free. Quite the opposite. It should charge the user per-e-mail on an at-cost basis. It's a utility, not a hand-out. Think post office.

Do you punish people for sending spam?

Only by making them pay for every mail they send.

Do you filter spam, if so, how.

On the receiving end. A plugin system would let people choose to subscribe to updated blocklists and filtering rules, just like modern adblocking.

Do people need public terminals to access the service?

Same way it is now. The vast majority of people have their own smart devices, and for the ones who don't there's the public library.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#25

Post by Karrot_Kream »

lordnacho wrote: post #8
causi wrote: post #2

Email is our only reliable communication method between different organizations. I'm still of the opinion there should be public-option internet services. Everyone deserves an e-mail address that cannot be taken away from them without a court order.

But we also all need to eat and use a toilet to live. Those seem to be provided by the market to a reasonable degree. Email is also pretty cheap and there's at least some choice among providers, though of course far fewer that food types.

Yeah but the existence of toilets is mandated by code. The existence of email isn't regulated in any way. Requiring non-commercial (<-- which is doing a lot of work here) email addresses would cause a robust market to appear overnight.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#26

Post by pjmlp »

zekica wrote: post #15

The biggest blunder for me is that there were usable decentralized communication options before that were popular, but because of trying to monetize user's data FAANG started to tighten their grip on any decentralized solution, and I think they succeeded. They are already trying do to email the same thing they did to XMPP and RSS.

Before Internet we had centralized networking, BBS, Compserve, and similar online services accessed point to point via modem services.

What is old is new again.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#27

Post by vital_beach »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #6
vital_beach wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

while I agree with the idea of emails that can't be arbitrarily shutdown, SSN-xx-HERE@citizen.gov sounds like all kinds of awful. It will either be instantly unusable or require a gov approved SPAM filter, both of which are bad. It also seems like a good vector to force a backdoor on all comms.

I think the issue (as in the what ) is that people should always be able to have a fallback option for sending and receiving email that's not at the whim of Google, MS et al. SSN-xx-HERE@citizen.gov is a how , which may or may not be a good one. For one, here in France, the SSN isn't as important as it seems to be in the US, so its being public is probably less of an issue. This approach would still be bad for spam o…

edit to add I agree. the comment below is just how I think it would actually turn out.

---

Avoiding the SSN issue, I think this still comes down to either forcing 3rd parties to host email accounts or gov hosting said email accounts. The former leads to "free" but not free email (like TurboTax) with the former or an outright loss in privacy with the latter.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#28

Post by cpach »

zekica wrote: post #15

The biggest blunder for me is that there were usable decentralized communication options before that were popular, but because of trying to monetize user's data FAANG started to tighten their grip on any decentralized solution, and I think they succeeded. They are already trying do to email the same thing they did to XMPP and RSS.

I’m not convinced that XMPP is actually such a great protocol. (I used it for many years.)

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#29

Post by DoItToMe81 »

causi wrote: post #2

Email is our only reliable communication method between different organizations. I'm still of the opinion there should be public-option internet services. Everyone deserves an e-mail address that cannot be taken away from them without a court order.

Sounds horrible. Mobile phones are bad enough, I don't want any more 'guaranteed' ways to be contacted by work or other annoyances in my free time.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#30

Post by jiggunjer »

causi wrote: post #24
jiggunjer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define internet services, or do you mean email service? There are many decisions that impact the usability and cost of the service. Some people need high volume sending or large mailbox storage. Do you punish people for sending spam? Do you filter spam, if so, how. Do people need public terminals to access the service? Etc.

I'm not saying it should be free. Quite the opposite. It should charge the user per-e-mail on an at-cost basis. It's a utility, not a hand-out. Think post office. Do you punish people for sending spam? Only by making them pay for every mail they send. Do you filter spam, if so, how. On the receiving end. A plugin system would let people choose to subscribe to updated blocklists and filtering rules, just like modern a…

I think if people had to pay per email, email wouldn't have become as big as it is. Especially since in your scenario compromised credentials could incur financial losses. Turning it into a paid utility would cripple it.

For many people, email is synonymous with free digital communication. Ideally such an essential service should not discriminate against homeless people or people with disabilities.

Post reply on HN