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The cost of cloud

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21–30 of 137 posts

Re: The cost of cloud

#21
post #10

I think the mistake is often made by comparing primitives. E.g. running my own RAID vs S3. Colo traffic vs AWS traffic. But what about comparing the whole ecosystem? Can you provide a self hosted granular access permission to your RAID? How hard is it to configure and maintain? Will your colo deflect a DDOS attack? When you run your own services, you have to reinvent so much it doesn’t seem to be worth it.

> Can you provide a self hosted granular access permission to your RAID?

This is the second-level mistake engineers commonly make:

The right questions isn't "Can you do X". Give engineers enough time and resources and they can usually come up with a solution to do X.

The real question is "How much time and resources need to be invested to accomplish X at a satisfactory level?"

And the third-level mistake is to assume that getting something to work once is the finish line. In practice, getting something to work once is just the beginning. Getting it to a maintainable, well-documented, repeatable state is a lot more work.

Cloud services make all of this effort disappear. Type a few commands and it's good to go. Now you can take all of the engineering hours that would have gone into the DIY version and allocate them to working on the company's product instead of reinventing architecture that you could have simply paid for.

Good engineers are scarce and expensive. Using them to reinvent infrastructure that can be trivially purchased for a nominal amount is a terrible move most of the time. Even when it does make sense, the right move is to build the prototypes on AWS and then consider transitioning to self-hosted later if the numbers work out.

Re: The cost of cloud

#22
I wonder how the costs compare if you choose to go outside of the big three. Hetzner, OVH, Scaleway etc are so much cheaper and the network exit costs are much lower than with AWS GCP or Azure.

Re: The cost of cloud

#23

"My rough estimate is that the unit cost of provisioning a service on AWS is about 3 times that of a competent IT organization providing a similar service in house." The word competent here is doing a lot of weight lifting. I know companies in which you have to wait _months_ for a small server to be allocated to your team. AWS does it in seconds

> I know companies in which you have to wait _months_ for a small server to be allocated to your team. AWS does it in seconds

If those companies ever migrated to AWS it would probably still take months to get a small EC2 instance allocated to them. Likely the problem is bureaucracy, not competence.

Re: The cost of cloud

#24

"My rough estimate is that the unit cost of provisioning a service on AWS is about 3 times that of a competent IT organization providing a similar service in house." The word competent here is doing a lot of weight lifting. I know companies in which you have to wait _months_ for a small server to be allocated to your team. AWS does it in seconds

> I know companies in which you have to wait _months_ for a small server to be allocated to your team. AWS does it in seconds If those companies ever migrated to AWS it would probably still take months to get a small EC2 instance allocated to them. Likely the problem is bureaucracy, not competence.

Well at least then you're only waiting on the bureaucracy and then seconds for AWS instead of beaurocracy and then machine order, setup, provisioning, and re-provisioning time, all with their own bureaucracy time :)

When I worked in Sony games I had the choice between AWS and the IT department. The IT department was fine, just it was a 6 month lead time for the hardware and they had a tendency to optimize servers they didn't understand.

The problem was that they wanted 6 months and a capacity plan. 2 months to get me a test server. I knew server capacity about 2 weeks before launch. I also needed 5 server class machines with which to test against (which was the end cluster number) and the kicker which was 250 load generators to prove it.

The real kicker is that for many games load peak is the Friday after launch, we really only needed 1 machine a week later, and .25 going forward thereafter.

With the IT department we would have bought $160k worth of servers. And we still couldn't have actually tested things without AWS. AWS Cost $30k the first year and then we actually moved to new instance classes which cost $12k, $6k, and $1k a year thereafter. It was enough cost dropping that it wasn't worth dev time to even downgrade the cluster to a single instance.

None of that includes what IT would have cost to run the hardware. I'd make the same choice every time.

Re: The cost of cloud

#25
These types of posts rarely measure operational cost. Anybody can buy infrastructure and stick it behind an API. But can you make it fault tolerant with high availability and low latency. Can you do all of that and _still_ beat AWS's costs? For the vast majority of customers the answer is no.

I used to work at a medium sized company, and they saved millions by moving to the cloud, and gained much better availability/performance. It wasn't even close, because that medium-sized company didn't have the expertise to operate the service efficiently. They just bought off the shelf stuff from VMWare etc.. Plus, DR meant paying double.

disclaimer, I now work for AWS.

Re: The cost of cloud

#26
post #25

These types of posts rarely measure operational cost. Anybody can buy infrastructure and stick it behind an API. But can you make it fault tolerant with high availability and low latency. Can you do all of that and _still_ beat AWS's costs? For the vast majority of customers the answer is no. I used to work at a medium sized company, and they saved millions by moving to the cloud, and gained much better availability/…

My availability on-prem is vastly higher than AWS, especially over the past month.

Re: The cost of cloud

#27
post #10

I think the mistake is often made by comparing primitives. E.g. running my own RAID vs S3. Colo traffic vs AWS traffic. But what about comparing the whole ecosystem? Can you provide a self hosted granular access permission to your RAID? How hard is it to configure and maintain? Will your colo deflect a DDOS attack? When you run your own services, you have to reinvent so much it doesn’t seem to be worth it.

> Can you provide a self hosted granular access permission to your RAID? This is the second-level mistake engineers commonly make: The right questions isn't "Can you do X". Give engineers enough time and resources and they can usually come up with a solution to do X. The real question is "How much time and resources need to be invested to accomplish X at a satisfactory level?" And the third-level mistake is to assume…

Eh, I would argue that any advantage cloud has in ease of configuration is because of the brain drain in good server software caused by the cloud: Spend some time in Microsoft Azure and it becomes instantly sad that all this manpower was pulled off of Windows Server (which has stagnated as a product) and been invested in a proprietary service product that runs on top of Windows Server. And the former will outlive the latter more than likely.

Re: The cost of cloud

#28
I don't know why there are so many articles in this vain:

- use the cloud until you're making so much money that you can afford to hire the sufficient talent to replicate cheaper.

fin

Re: The cost of cloud

#29
post #25

These types of posts rarely measure operational cost. Anybody can buy infrastructure and stick it behind an API. But can you make it fault tolerant with high availability and low latency. Can you do all of that and _still_ beat AWS's costs? For the vast majority of customers the answer is no. I used to work at a medium sized company, and they saved millions by moving to the cloud, and gained much better availability/…

My availability on-prem is vastly higher than AWS, especially over the past month.

when looking at these things, you always need to look over the long term. Sure, December wasn't great, but how was all of 2021 overall?

It's also not just cost/availability, but flexibility and scalability. Most high-growth startups would have not been able to scale quickly enough pre-cloud. Facebook is literally the unicorn.

Re: The cost of cloud

#30

Just curious: if you are an enterprise, what do you think (besides cost) is a compelling argument in 2022 for not going to a public cloud? This is probably a Ask HN, so please do point me to it if you know an existing one.

Cost is a huge one, but availability and service priority is a big one for me: Amazon and Microsoft are going to provide service and choose to deploy updates and do maintenance on schedules that work for them, not schedules that work for you.

Your in-house IT department knows not to take a risk the week before your big product launch. Amazon and Microsoft simply do not care about your product launch at all, and probably aren't even aware of it.

You're going to pay for infrastructure and IT staff either way, so why not pay for IT staff and infrastructure that prioritizes your business needs and not their own business needs?

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