Live data from Hacker News

Against Translation

libertiesjournal.com

21–30 of 55 posts

Re: Against Translation

#21

Of course it would be great to read books in their native language, but is it better to get a reasonable translation of a book, or no translation at all? That is the question. If you take some authors with multiple translations over many decades, e.g. Proust or Hugo, you can see that the early translations are actually very rough, and only recently are we seeing very high quality. The main problem is that language tr…

My view on translations is that if literary luminaries such as Gabriel García Márquez and Vladimir Nabokov both think that the English versions of their work fully stand up to the test (which they are both on record as stating), then that is good enough for me. I am not monolingual. I know what it feels like to read in different languages, and here's the thing: The words? The grammar? Easy. You can learn enough to st…

Slightly related: Tove Jansson (author of the Moomin books) related that the process of working with her English translator on an early book had been revelatory, in exploring what she was actually meaning to say to the extent that she reckoned that by the end the translation was an improvement on the Swedish original.

Re: Against Translation

#22

This was too long for me to understand. The author should just get to the point they want to make.

The bigger issue is there's like five entirely separate theses that he kind of tries to ramble through in a single article that should've been split up. Some of his points are excellent but some of them are silly and childish, the products of someone who lives in academia and not the real world.

No post body was provided.

Re: Against Translation

#23
post #16

Quoted post unavailable.

One noteworthy thing is that the author of this essay is a prominent and successful literary translator. Other ideas in this piece: * People are losing familiarity with their nations' or languages' own historic literary cultures (because of a mixture of guilt, technology, and cultural globalization). * Literary translation sometimes gives an illusion of familiarity when readers are still missing out on much (much!) m…

> People are losing familiarity with their nations' or languages' own historic literary cultures

It's quite normal for people to lose some marginal quantum of familiarity with their own culture, as they're gaining far deeper familiarity with a wide variety of world cultures. I'm not sure why the OP thinks this is a "bad" thing. It's a trade-off for sure but a rather clear-cut one, and it shouldn't take a tedious "long-form" article to state with far more clarity than OP did!

> Literary translation sometimes gives an illusion of familiarity when readers are still missing out on much (much!) more context than they think.

By the way, this point (which is quite correct, as far as it goes!) nicely overrides the previous bullet point. The past is a foreign country, after all.

> There is an awkwardness in the fact that literary translation into English is more important, prestigious, useful, sought-after, etc., than literary translation to any other language whatsoever.

Does this matter when the awkwardness is mostly just being felt by English speakers themselves? They're also the ones who are benefiting the most! As far as anyone else is concerned, English is just another foreign language and there's no harm if a creative work is also available in English translation.

Re: Against Translation

#24
Having read Murakami first in English then in Japanese then years later again in Japanese after living in the culture each was a different but worthwhile experience. The last was in some ways least exciting because I realized that characters I had thought of as fascinatingly original or quirky just referred to tropes or stereotypes in the broader culture. I don’t think any literature really gives an accurate sense of another culture unless you have other base knowledge. I’m interested in Russia somewhat but I read Dostoveysky almost as occuring in some universal European setting, I don’t read for the details of Russian culture.

Re: Against Translation

#25

Having read Murakami first in English then in Japanese then years later again in Japanese after living in the culture each was a different but worthwhile experience. The last was in some ways least exciting because I realized that characters I had thought of as fascinatingly original or quirky just referred to tropes or stereotypes in the broader culture. I don’t think any literature really gives an accurate sense of…

Something I enjoyed about reading Murakami both in Japanese and in translation is that there are a couple of translations of "Norwegian Wood". Seeing how two translators (Alfred Birnbaum and Jay Rubin) handled the translation into English gave me different views of how one could approach Japanese from an English perspective (my native tongue).

Re: Against Translation

#26
It's odd that in the whole course of this very long article, Moser doesn't use the word "power" in describing the relationship of English and its literature to the rest of the world, or the relationship of the language and literature to its own speakers. Most of his laments and descriptions of decline, the fraught and tricky questions of bringing books and authors into English, boil down to a question of power -- economic and geopolitical power -- and yet he never quite comes out and says that.

Mizimura's "defense" of her writing against English; the elevation that occurs for a non-English writer when they are translated into English; the perceived "universality" of English; the resultant cultural guilt of English speakers: these are manifestations of power.

Likewise, the deracination of English, its divorce from specific place and people, is a result of power. He seems to think it is a result of a change in the culture: "I began to wonder if the culture that threatened other languages was hollowing out English, too. That culture goes by many disparaging names. It was called “corporate,” “capitalist,” “neoliberal”; it was taught as “Business English.” It was the vehicle of the infrastructure, for the most basic communication: for checking into a hotel, sending an email, participating in a sales conference."

But this is not a cultural problem, it is a power problem. Power in our current (American) society is inherent in the infrastructure he mentions. It exists within the movement of capital, within corporate law, within lobbying, within international trade. Language becomes hollowed out and denatured in this situation, because there is no culture, culture is not required to run the machines of power.

Likewise the observation that the international literature that we're comfortable with (I say "we" here, as I am also a white, middle-aged, middle-class, American literary translator) reads much like our own. We seek out foreign literature that feels like it was written for us: it feels that way because it was written by and for an equivalent socioeconomic class, one that simply hails from a different country. Moser says we might benefit more from reading literature from Paris, Texas than we would from Paris, France: that is because this putative literature from Texas comes from a world that does not have power. It is more educational to reach across power boundaries than it is to reach across language boundaries -- if all you end up finding in the latter case is your international peers.

He describes a language as an old city, and says very emphatically that what is needed to keep that city in good repair is people, the participation of people and their community. But that is exactly what we don't need in middle and upper class America. We do not have culture. We have structures of power, and culture is surplus to its purposes. The English language as we speak it now seems flat and vacuous because it is not strictly necessary; it is providing no vital function. Tweets and memes are sufficient for us, because almost nothing that matters in the system we live in depends on the skillful, thoughtful use of language. There's no sense in mourning young people's lack of reading habits. Nothing they find in those books will tell them how they might live in the world. The books are no longer necessary to them in a way that they might have been necessary to earlier generations.

This is an overly pessimisstic statement of the situation! And I am only partly Marxist -- I do not believe that it's all down to economics. But I believe we've created a machine, which we live inside of, which requires us to exercise very few of our human faculties in order to sustain its operation. It is no surprise if we start to lose those faculties.

Re: Against Translation

#27

Having read Murakami first in English then in Japanese then years later again in Japanese after living in the culture each was a different but worthwhile experience. The last was in some ways least exciting because I realized that characters I had thought of as fascinatingly original or quirky just referred to tropes or stereotypes in the broader culture. I don’t think any literature really gives an accurate sense of…

This was my experience when I watched and rewatched the anime film Spirited Away over the years. It is a fantastic film, to be sure, but I hadn't realized how much he borrowed from the existing culture of Japan until I learned more about Japanese religion and culture generally. It wasn't wholly invented myth, as it appeared to me as an American child.

Re: Against Translation

#28
I'm seeing many dismissive comments, and as this seems to be due to the length of the piece, I would warmly recommend anyone interested in languages, literature (and especially their cross-cultural implications) to set it aside to read when they have the time. It is a very beautiful article, whose form is inescapably related to its content. It voices an unease which I suspect will feel familiar to many international, non-English-native readers (like me), as well as native English speakers (like the author).

An aspect of this conversation which I feel is particularly relevant for many of us here: the perception of language as simply a means to communicate information, a tool to be optimized with respect to its purpose, as though "information" existed in a vacuum. In my experience, this perception is particularly strong among speakers of dominant languages (languages either in which things are most likely to be spoken, or into which things are routinely translated to reach a broader audience), but it can also infuse in "dominated" language groups. I've seen this first hand among close relatives who delude themselves into thinking they have as much expressive power in English as in their native language, which they don't, not just because of their inability to speak it (though that plays a part) but because their life experience hasn't "soaked" in the English language, or (maybe) vice-versa.

One expression that I will long meditate from the article, and which I think applies more broadly than just literature "the continuous encounter of young people with a tradition".

(the irony is not lost on me that I have to write this comment in English. Maybe you see the irony but, if you only speak English, this irony is probably of a different color than the one I see, without value judgment)

Re: Against Translation

#30
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view on translations is that if literary luminaries such as Gabriel García Márquez and Vladimir Nabokov both think that the English versions of their work fully stand up to the test (which they are both on record as stating), then that is good enough for me. I am not monolingual. I know what it feels like to read in different languages, and here's the thing: The words? The grammar? Easy. You can learn enough to st…

Slightly related: Tove Jansson (author of the Moomin books) related that the process of working with her English translator on an early book had been revelatory, in exploring what she was actually meaning to say to the extent that she reckoned that by the end the translation was an improvement on the Swedish original.

That's interesting: I checked out one of the early Moomin books in French translation once (the first chapter or so in the bookstore), and it was strikingly blander than the English version. It was like they were phoning it in. (My French is a second language, but still, I checked the English side by side and it didn't seem to be just me.)
Post reply on HN