I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer” • Hacker News Board

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#21

Post by twofornone » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

College was once a signal of competence. That cannot be true when you push half the population through the system; the normal distribution is still the same. Doubly so given the commodification of education, which creates perverse incentives for phenomena like grade inflation, further reducing the value of a degree as a signal.

The first assumption that needs to change in order to revert the status of the college degree is the well meaning but false idea that competence can be taught to anyone. It gives people a false sense of optimism which frequently results in angst, debt, and wasted years.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#22

Post by watwut » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #6

The economy that mobilized on a dime to defeat Nazi Germany and sent men to the moon had only 5% of adults with a college degree. Is it so much more complex now that kids need four more expensive years of education? And if it is more complex, is college as currently structured the cheapest way to develop those additional skills?

The engineers inventing the machinery necessary for landing I the moon all had college degrees.

The mobilization for the war does not require super educated population.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#23

Post by hervature » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

WhiteOwlEd wrote: post #8

visaals wrote: post #2

After the experience of meeting the Uber driver with an degree in actuarial science unable to apply his education it shattered my rose colored glasses about how education today is "The Great Equalizer" and the solution to all of our problems. I wanted to share these thoughts to discuss any cool ideas to bridge the gap between an education and effectively increasing opportunity for people as automation take away more…

Founder of https://www.whiteowleducation.com here. Undergrad dual major in Actuarial Science and Computer Science (with a MBA a long time after undergrad). Without additional context, my guess would be that the Uber driver maybe focused on applications of math and statistics to the insurance industry, but maybe focused more on passing actuarial exams and less on using programming in order to implement the models. Som…

I'm a little more skeptic than you. I don't think an Uber driver would admit that they failed the prerequisite exams required to enter the field. This is just the system working. Barring entry to those who have a degree but didn't actually learn the skills.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#24

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

Ologn wrote: post #5

I have worked in IT for a long time, but have taken night and weekend college classes over the years. I took a CS 3xx class with mostly college seniors a few years ago. Most were CS majors. Once a bunch of us were outside talking, and I said something about software version control. The person I was talking to said "what's that?" I asked the others if they knew what software version control was. None knew. I said, "y…

[deleted]

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#25

Post by jsiaajdsdaa » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

mettamage wrote: post #9

> It’s already happening with companies like Lambda School focused on cultivating the next generation of software engineers by educating Bad example. Lambda School had some pretty bad press on HN about having lower completion rates than advertised, etc.

Why do people think self taught isnt viable

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#26

Post by DylanSp » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

Ologn wrote: post #5

I have worked in IT for a long time, but have taken night and weekend college classes over the years. I took a CS 3xx class with mostly college seniors a few years ago. Most were CS majors. Once a bunch of us were outside talking, and I said something about software version control. The person I was talking to said "what's that?" I asked the others if they knew what software version control was. None knew. I said, "y…

CS programs vary pretty widely in how much they focus on the theoretical/mathematical side of computer science vs. practical software engineering. I was in a similar boat to the CS majors in your comment at one point; I only started learning Git after talking with some fellow students who had practical experience.

Some programs, at least, are conscious of this problem. MIT built and shared their "Missing Semester" [1] course to help with this. There are also some schools developing more practical software engineering/computer engineering degree programs.

[1] https://missing.csail.mit.edu/

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#27

Post by kodah » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

jsiaajdsdaa wrote: post #25

mettamage wrote: post #9

> It’s already happening with companies like Lambda School focused on cultivating the next generation of software engineers by educating Bad example. Lambda School had some pretty bad press on HN about having lower completion rates than advertised, etc.

Why do people think self taught isnt viable

I'm self-taught. I would never recommend anyone go this route.

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#28

Post by Foobar8568 » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

Because the required level is shit. And it has been downhill since the implementation of modern math and the rejection of math in the modern era or elitist path at school. We see it everywhere and especially in France or Switzerland. 10 years old native kids who can't read fluently. 15 years old who would write 1/2+1/3=2/5. They will keep this level of skills through the end of high school and master degree thanks to grade inflation and/or curve notation.

Public school is at at least 2 levels if not more. Elite will remain in their own world. Rich will just pour money on their kids education, middle class and the poor are fucked.

In France, most 18 years old would fail the brevet (end of middle school degree) as it was given in 1950s/60s. All the exams are pure jokes, and we see it in international education survey (PISA or even better TIMMS, level are dropping beside for the top 5%)

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#29

Post by jimnotgym » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

Ologn wrote: post #5

I have worked in IT for a long time, but have taken night and weekend college classes over the years. I took a CS 3xx class with mostly college seniors a few years ago. Most were CS majors. Once a bunch of us were outside talking, and I said something about software version control. The person I was talking to said "what's that?" I asked the others if they knew what software version control was. None knew. I said, "y…

This is so true. I was recently interviewing grads for a job that, while not development, had a number of applicants with CS degrees (in UK). I couldn't believe how little coding they had done. Their main projects were mostly machine learning based, and all were using Pandas and Scikit learn... Great for data science but hardly a coding challenge!

Re: I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

#30

Post by tptacek » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #22

rayiner wrote: post #6

The economy that mobilized on a dime to defeat Nazi Germany and sent men to the moon had only 5% of adults with a college degree. Is it so much more complex now that kids need four more expensive years of education? And if it is more complex, is college as currently structured the cheapest way to develop those additional skills?

The engineers inventing the machinery necessary for landing I the moon all had college degrees. The mobilization for the war does not require super educated population.

Yes, but his point is that the society that marshaled those degree-holders only had a pool of 5% of graduates to draw on. There's no question that some jobs require college education; the question is whether there are enough of them to justify pushing the majority of 18-year-olds into 4-year colleges.