The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea • Hacker News Board

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#21

Post by agentultra » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:10 PM UTC

The author is just pigeon-holing the abilities of people. I was/am pretty good at math AND art. Not everyone is a specialist that fits neatly into perfectly shaped holes.

Designers who design for the web should know HTML, CSS, and Javascript pretty well. The best ones know them throughout. Design isn't art -- it's a technical profession and one that requires the designer to know their medium. If you do not then I would say you're taking the piss right out of it.

Being the person who has to "code" a designers' work is a career built on frustration. The web wasn't built in photoshop. It was built by nerds and engineers. It has come a long way to allow people to make their HTML documents more expressive (to the point that they've become full application UI's...). But that doesn't escape the fact that this is a technical medium with specific technologies that drive those expressions.

You have to know this stuff if you want to be good, IMO.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#22

Post by folletto » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:14 PM UTC

krmmalik wrote: post #19

I got about a quarter way through the article and gave up reading. The reasoning cited is pretty poor. I was someone that used to think i could never code because my brain wasnt wired that way, but yet here i am, coding. Its given better insight into what issues and constraints programmers face. This whole pigeon-holing exercise is just a complete farce. Far better to know a little about everything than everything ab…

Kudos to you if you were able to do it. However, please, reach the end, it says the same thing. :)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#23

Post by lhnz » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:17 PM UTC

NeilCJames wrote: post #4

camwest wrote: post #2

'According to James Traub (writing for The New Republic), Gardner's theory of Multiple Intelligences has not been accepted by most cognitive scientists nor by most academics in the education field. Indeed, George Miller, one of the psychologists credited with discovering the mechanisms by which short-term memory works, wrote that Gardner's theory boiled down to “hunch and opinion.”' http://latestlearningcurve.blogspo…

I am editing a forthcoming book in the field, written by a teacher who earnestly believes in MI. Evaluating this teacher's data, his approach is clearly working for his students, but I think because of better engagement, more individual attention, and more interdisciplinary projects. Ultimately, I think we're cutting most of the MI stuff from the book as unsupported, although he will cite Gardner as inspiration. The…

> is more consistent with variation in subject performance primarily correlating with interest and personality

My hunch and opinion is that this is correct, too. ;) Also, it all kind of reminds me of the Pygmalion effect[1]. Other people tell us what we're good and bad at and then we run with it...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_effect

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#24

Post by folletto » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:25 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #21

The author is just pigeon-holing the abilities of people. I was/am pretty good at math AND art. Not everyone is a specialist that fits neatly into perfectly shaped holes. Designers who design for the web should know HTML, CSS, and Javascript pretty well. The best ones know them throughout. Design isn't art -- it's a technical profession and one that requires the designer to know their medium. If you do not then I wou…

Pigeon-holing? Quite the opposite. I'm making the difference between "should" and "could". That's exactly because not everyone is a specialist, neither I am, but at the same time not everyone is a generalist! :)

Exactly like I'm saying in the middle of the article, "you have to know this stuff", but you don't have to know also how this stuff is done, you can, of course. But it's not a must. :)

It's always sad for me to hear people with bad experiences with designers or developers, but really, I don't think that "code" is the answer. I believe that "teamwork" is the answer. Knowing. Discussing. Collaborating. I've never seen a team doing that failing, regardless of the mix of skills :)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#25

Post by folletto » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:26 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #14

I will call your bullshit and raise you a fallacy. ;) But seriously, I think that pigeon-holing yourself into one skill set is the WORST thing you can do. If nothing else, you should at least attempt to learn code so that you might be able to produce reasonable, efficient designs that the coders can easily implement. But it goes much farther than that. Someone (on the internet) once said "programming is the new liter…

I know, it's wonderful when you can do both, but I think it shouldn't be forced on everyone. Not everyone is a specialist, and not everyone is a generalist. Forcing one, or the other, is harmful. :)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#26

Post by silon » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:31 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #18

endtwist wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Design is not about the tools you use, and development is not about the code you write. Developers can learn design fundamentals (and I mean really basic "what's the idea behind this color/element/typographic decision?") without touching Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. Similarly, designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code, through research about the existing technologies and their use…

"designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code" Depends on what we mean by 'code'. I don't expect designers to understand javascript, php, java, .net or whatever. I do expect someone who bills themselves as a web designer to understand the basic fundamentals of CSS, what works on various browsers, gradeful degradation strategies, etc. I don't really think you can do web design success…

They must understand that user can (and should be able to) change (just the) font size, if not their designs are often useless.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#27

Post by twidlit » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:32 PM UTC

The problem here is 'designers' is an ambiguous term and 'code' is a loose term. If the sentence is "Web designers should know at least HTML/CSS." as it should be, then the debate would proceed properly instead of everybody missing each other's point. Framing this whole argument into "designers should code" is not doing any side any favor.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#28

Post by rapind » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:34 PM UTC

As a programmer I could care less if a designer can code. What I'd love though is if design courses spent a very small amount of time teaching basic source control, organization, and naming conventions. I know some designers would consider this boring, but I swear it would really simplify the process and we coders would be much more accepting of last minute changes (after all, we make last minute changes sometimes too).

I think the misconception presented here is that designers shouldn't necessarily be handing massive, unsliced photoshop files to pure coders. There's a a few skills in the middle of that process; slicing, optimizing, organizing, and css. Often enough neither designer nor coder is proficient in this area. Handing off your mockups to third party slicers isn't always the best idea either (you can end up with some pretty strange CSS, and dealing with UI changes down the road can be painful). You might be better off with someone dedicated to this role.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#29

Post by mgkimsal » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:36 PM UTC

silon wrote: post #26

mgkimsal wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code" Depends on what we mean by 'code'. I don't expect designers to understand javascript, php, java, .net or whatever. I do expect someone who bills themselves as a web designer to understand the basic fundamentals of CSS, what works on various browsers, gradeful degradation strategies, etc. I don't really think you can do web design success…

They must understand that user can (and should be able to) change (just the) font size, if not their designs are often useless.

AMEN!

Death to adding those stupid "font size icons" to change to one of 2-3 predetermined sizes too!

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#30

Post by athst » Thu, Sep 01, 2011, 1:36 PM UTC

It is really arguing the extremes, when reality, the best place to be is somewhere in between.

Designers and developers should of course have good understanding and empathy for what the other person does. But at the same time, they shouldn't have such a complete understanding that it negatively impacts their primary role.

For example, if you're a designer, you don't want to fall into the trap of only incorporating things into your design that you already know how to code. You might leave a lot of innovative stuff out that would make the product better. If you're a developer, you don't always want to be bound by the existing design constraints either. It's a back and forth discussion between the two halves.