They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started • Hacker News Board

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#21

Post by krageon » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

Reuzel wrote: post #12

krageon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exact rhetoric is something you often hear whenever any sort of left leaning person does anything remotely incriminating. It's really hard to separate the reasonable criticism from the neonazi trolling, which usually leaves one to search for embedded dog whistles. Of which this post has a few. I will leave it up to you if that is something you wish to address.

No, it is time we see this evil for what it is. You are the marxist troll here, unable to view criticism. But following my observation, that would be like expecting an alt-right neonazi to see the errors of their views. You don't get the benefit of "good intentions" and "moral high-ground" anymore. Stop claiming it. Left up to you it will degenerate into evil like this. You can shove your dog whistle up your loose as…

> you are the Marxist troll here

I pointed out ways in which your post could be misconstrued by your audience, and from this you have extrapolated some surprising and far-reaching facts about my political views. You are wrong, so much so I must admit it made me laugh.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#22

Post by krageon » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:32 PM UTC

eertami wrote: post #19

krageon wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exact rhetoric is something you often hear whenever any sort of left leaning person does anything remotely incriminating. It's really hard to separate the reasonable criticism from the neonazi trolling, which usually leaves one to search for embedded dog whistles. Of which this post has a few. I will leave it up to you if that is something you wish to address.

I'm always suspicious about who is actually making these posts. Surely it is obvious to them that nobody would ever fall for it or treat it in good faith. The only conclusion that seems to make any sense is that the authors are being paid to write these comments.

I think most posts are made by real people that believe they are doing the right thing. Sometimes tragically

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#23

Post by RankingMember » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #9

One of the most disturbing things I’ve watched during the last 2 years is the number of people: 1. Celebrating the deaths of people who didn’t get vaccinated because they were pro. 2. Mocking the deaths of anyone who died from Covid under the assumption that it’s being politically over-labeled. There’s a sign in a funeral home in my hometown with a quote that leaves me very disturbed about our future. “Show me the ma…

I think the overarching disturbing thing that leads to other disturbing things like that is a basic disregard for common decency in dialog, or, more simply, an enormous partisan divide.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#24

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:35 PM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #16

Putting aside any special reverence we might have for the dead, I guess the abstract question is: is there any social value to publicly shaming those who uncritically call into question settled scientific claims, putting others at risk? I would say there is some value. Our society will not survive if it is socially acceptable to do this. COVID is exhibit A. Climate science is exhibit B. Settled scientific matters, li…

I guess that depends on who gets to decide value and in what manner.

Settled scientific facts are not the same as politics and policy. They can be useful in determining policy, but are not a default policy. It also depends on how those facts get linked together. You need to question the n-order impacts to devise good policy.

"If there is a belief among some that settled scientific questions are a matter of non-expert public debate, then that needs to be corrected."

Policy should be debated by the people. You need an informed citizenry for democracy to function.

Sure, we can publicly shame people for just about anything (1st Ammendment). What is acceptable depends on what the group or society decides. For example, should we fat shame people to reduce healthcare costs on aggregate?

We also need to weigh societal benefit of shaming against any societal detriment like a reduction in civility.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#25

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

Reuzel wrote: post #2

Good to highlight this. I became aware of the evils of the "alt-right" when they started trolling suicide memorial pages. This is a similar attack coming from the polar side of the political spectrum. You cannot claim the moral high-ground after this. If the pro-vaccine left does not distance itself from this ugly evil within their midsts, it should go a similar route as the alt-right did, in the eyes of the public:…

I'm generally sympathetic to arguments using parts of this framework ("be careful with this shit, Left"), but

"the pro-vaccine left [should be seen as] a terrorist and fascist organization"

is insane.

Vaccines are mostly advocated by the technocratic center. There are things to be annoyed at this faction about, but they're not extreme and they're not bad.

Arguably, they're not even especially "left".

And the tribal Democrats who gloat about COVID, while shitty, are not even the dangerous/radical part of that party. They're just the stupid ones, the "football fans".

Yes, they should be told not to act like this. But in the long run they can be ignored.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#26

Post by RankingMember » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:38 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #4

this is one of the many reason the left has left me. things like /r/covidatemyface and /r/HermanCainAward/ - full of so-called progressives and their endless pseudo-empathy, not seeing this as opportunity to increase understanding about this situation and more as an tribalistic moment to "score points" and have a good laugh at the ignorance and death of others and the pain their families have to endure in the wake of…

You can be progressive and not have any compassion left for ignorance. Don’t confuse policy positions with being a doormat for those who equate beliefs and opinions with facts (which is troubling frequent in a post truth world). My apologies to Meta, “data wins arguments.” All of this loss (r/HCA) was mostly avoidable (based on all available information) with a free vaccine , and the subreddit raised over $56k [1] fo…

And, to be fair, it's flagrant "thumbing their nose at you as they're being rolled into intensive care", top-level ignorance. The HCA subreddit made me uneasy, but the rules and goal do seem to be at least semi-compassionate in a "save the flock being led off the hill by showing them the dead shepherd" kind of way.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#27

Post by unpopularopp » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

blamazon wrote: post #3

See for yourself the Reddit forum that NYT alludes to: https://old.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ Notable rule on that subreddit: > Posts about non-public figures must redact the entire name(s) of everyone in every image. Block it out completely. Don't scribble and allow redacted names to leak through. Profile pictures are not allowed and must be blocked out.

Reddit is famously okay with hate if you hate the right group of people see /r/FuckYouKaren, /r/COVIDAteMyFace/ and of course aforementioned sub.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#28

Post by toomuchtodo » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

RankingMember wrote: post #26

toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be progressive and not have any compassion left for ignorance. Don’t confuse policy positions with being a doormat for those who equate beliefs and opinions with facts (which is troubling frequent in a post truth world). My apologies to Meta, “data wins arguments.” All of this loss (r/HCA) was mostly avoidable (based on all available information) with a free vaccine , and the subreddit raised over $56k [1] fo…

And, to be fair, it's flagrant "thumbing their nose at you as they're being rolled into intensive care", top-level ignorance. The HCA subreddit made me uneasy, but the rules and goal do seem to be at least semi-compassionate in a "save the flock being led off the hill by showing them the dead shepherd" kind of way.

Right. If you give society both middle fingers while headed off a cliff at speed as the crowd shouts to you to stop, not much sympathy when you’ve run out of runway. We use your experience to encourage better outcomes for those still with us who can make better choices.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#29

Post by ipaddr » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #16

Putting aside any special reverence we might have for the dead, I guess the abstract question is: is there any social value to publicly shaming those who uncritically call into question settled scientific claims, putting others at risk? I would say there is some value. Our society will not survive if it is socially acceptable to do this. COVID is exhibit A. Climate science is exhibit B. Settled scientific matters, li…

Settled science matters is an oxymoron. The very nature of the scientist method is to continually question.

Public shaming of anyone who questions non-experts who only remain experts if they parrot the party line?

Sounds like you've moving into religion.

Re: They Died from Covid. Then the Online Attacks Started

#30

Post by cxr » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

jordanpg wrote: post #16

Putting aside any special reverence we might have for the dead, I guess the abstract question is: is there any social value to publicly shaming those who uncritically call into question settled scientific claims, putting others at risk? I would say there is some value. Our society will not survive if it is socially acceptable to do this. COVID is exhibit A. Climate science is exhibit B. Settled scientific matters, li…

The results of Millikan's oil drop experiment were settled. They were also wrong.

Calling for people to not subject fact claims to scrutiny because they're considered settled is not a pro-science position. It's anti-science.

Matters of science don't need anyone to come to the universe's aid by telling people to give it a rest. They'll hold up.