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Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

reuters.com

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#21

Post by ghoward »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

I have no idea what you mean. The judges blocked only one course of action, so they aren't removing the ability of the government to do anything.

Also, they explicitly said that Congress should do it, as our elected representatives. That's basically putting the authority where it belongs, if it exists. That's not about preventing government from doing anything.

And what's wrong with dismantling the administrative state? Many industries are already over-regulated because there are so many agencies, so many rules, and often, those rules conflict. The administrative state is a hindrance to progress and innovation because it keeps new players from entering the field.

Why do you think that "dismantling" it will lead to ruin?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#22

Post by bko »

Anechoic wrote: post #6
bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

and whose head is appointed by one person Note that while the position is appointed by POTUS, it is a Senate confirmed position - she was approved with a vote of 55-44 [0] (with five R votes). [0] https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_...

That's true. My impression is that this is more or less a rubber stamp and the head is acting on behalf of the president. I can't imagine someone getting elected to this position that wouldn't take marching orders from her appointee. It's a lot of power to give one person.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#23

Post by peteradio »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

Fortunately we are a multi-layered system of government and your State's Governor may be able to direct some public health response tailored to your State's unique needs. I think this was the correct ruling and I can not understand why someone would want the President of the United States to be able to direct my medical treatment. Or is it that only particular Presidents would be able to execute this power, how do you control that?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#25

Post by hammock »

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

>Too often we look at the end results (e.g. will this increase vaccination rates)

Even that might not be quite the best end result to be looking for (unless you own the jab patents).

Shouldn't we be looking at clinical outcomes of covid patients, or counts of severe covid cases instead?

If we optimized for marriage rate in the world we might end up with a whole lot of unhappy couples and/or broken homes.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#26

Post by runako »

sieabahlpark wrote: post #18
runako wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, this is exactly how representative government works. It's not controversial that we do not have a direct vote on Secretary of Defense, a position that arguably has more human impact as the head of CMS.

Why are you moving the goal posts? No one said the population should directly vote on it. They said the representatives (who the people voted for) should be deciding through the legislature, not through a single appointed person.

> it is a Senate confirmed position - she was approved with a vote of 55-44 (with five R votes).

The elected representatives chose to delegate this power to the person they approved as the head of CMS. What principle would be involved in requiring Congress to execute its powers in a different manner (i.e. by not delegating), simply because one does not like the outcome in this case? Who would decide which powers Congress could delegate and which it had to exercise directly? Has someone already drafted the Amendment to the Constitution which would limit the powers of Congress in this way?

There's no reason in principle for Congress to directly make this decision about requirements placed on CMS contractors and not other aspects of vendor relations handled by CMS. (The narrow issue here is whether CMS can require its contractors to enforce vaccine mandates.)

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#27

Post by dahfizz »

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

> Too often we look at the end results (e.g. will this increase vaccination rates) rather than the means of getting there.

Strongly agree. Tangentially, I felt this way about net neutrality. It should have been law passed by Congress. Instead, everyone cheered when an unelected executive board passed a net neutrality bill that the public wasn't allowed to read.

And then, everyone had the audacity to be surprised when the FTC undid net neutrality as fast as it did it. There is a reason we have a legislature and not just an executive branch that can do anything it wants.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#28

Post by bko »

invokestatic wrote: post #13
bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

I think it’s actually reasonable for an agency (CMS) to decide eligibility criteria for receiving federal Medicare and Medicaid dollars. This was authority granted to the agency by Congress. Requiring employees to be vaccinated as a condition to accepting Medicare seems pretty reasonable to me. Just as I would hope hospitals need to meet basic care standards to be eligible as well. Congress often delegates their powe…

> Requiring employees to be vaccinated as a condition to accepting Medicare seems pretty reasonable to me.

That's just a backdoor for giving more power to the federal branch. Its like 'interstate commerce' where anything that has interstate implications (pretty much everything) can be influenced by the federal government. What if an anti-abortion president elected someone to this board and told them that no health care provider that accepts medicare or medicaid can offer abortions?

I don't see mandating people to get a vaccine that they don't want as non-political bureaucratic action, especially considering its coming from the president's office. It's mandating a medical treatment. Take a step back and ask under what authority and supervision should we require a government to be mandating a medical treatment.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#29

Post by MarcoZavala »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

No post body was provided.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#30

Post by petesergeant »

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

> You can agree that its within the federal authority to mandate vaccines, but it really should be a decision made and explicitly endorsed by elected representatives rather than some agency

I'm from a country (UK) where parliament has absolute power, but also where the populace largely trusts the civil service. Health decisions, prosecution decisions, and so on are explicitly devolved from the government so that they don't become politicized. To me, that seems better, rather than asking politicians to intercede in what should essentially be decisions for experts to make.

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