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T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

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Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#21
post #12

I surprised that US iPhone 13 still supports CDMA2000 EV-DO. Is it still worth to support?

This likely mirrors what happened when we moved from analog to digital. CDMA versions of phones like the Motorola v60 came with pull out antennas and were still capable of latching on to analog signals. It would drain the battery pretty quickly, but it worked.

Most people, most of the time, were riding digital signals and their phones never saw analog, but yet it was still there. A few things came into play:

1) The CDMA chipset in the phone had analog capability, so it was basically "free" to utilize.

2) Analog signal still worked well in rural/mountainous areas where it carried better.

3) It was still in active use with regional carriers they had roaming agreements with.

My guess is that similar conditions are why it is still in play in today's phones.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#22
post #17
post #12

I surprised that US iPhone 13 still supports CDMA2000 EV-DO. Is it still worth to support?

That's a hard question to give a definitive answer to. In many ways, the answer is "no". However, as with most things in tech, there are always edge cases. Sprint's network (which T-Mobile bought and is integrating into the T-Mobile network) never went fully VoLTE (voice over LTE) so if you had a phone that didn't support CDMA voice and you were on the Sprint network experience and you traveled to one of the rare are…

Thanks. Licensing for tiny areas looks interesting.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#23
post #8

Not surprising. T-Mobile has always been a GSM network, CDMA is what they inherited from Sprint.

This is mostly about drama around Boost Mobile. T-Mobile wanted to shut down their CDMA network on January 1, 2022. Boost (now owned by Dish) doesn't want to upgrade users that have handsets that don't work with VoLTE. Upgrading users involves sending them notices, giving them options of free handsets, shipping those handsets, getting the users to actually activate them, etc.

While T-Mobile gave Boost nearly double the required time, Boost complained that it wasn't enough and regulators don't like the idea of customers losing access. T-Mobile delayed the shutdown for three months to quell the situation.

Dish is notoriously cheap. They're supposed to be building out their own 5G network, but it's looking like they don't want to spend the money to do that. Dish has also been losing the wireless customers it acquired and so they might be souring a bit on the business.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed strange that T-Mobile would have a CDMA network, until you remembered that it came from Sprint. This seems like good news. I'm glad that starting with LTE all the carriers started agreeing on a single platform with SIM cards. Even though there are little nuances between each carrier, the fact that you can buy a single phone and have it work with the four (three now) major carriers is a big deal.

Not only are phones cross network compatible, with eSIM support, you can provision new service within minutes on any supported carrier, no physical SIM required.

Unless you're AT&T, then it takes a couple hours.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#25
post #23
post #8

Not surprising. T-Mobile has always been a GSM network, CDMA is what they inherited from Sprint.

This is mostly about drama around Boost Mobile. T-Mobile wanted to shut down their CDMA network on January 1, 2022. Boost (now owned by Dish) doesn't want to upgrade users that have handsets that don't work with VoLTE. Upgrading users involves sending them notices, giving them options of free handsets, shipping those handsets, getting the users to actually activate them, etc. While T-Mobile gave Boost nearly double t…

Are they legally required to offer replacement phones? Or is it just customer retention?

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. There have always been smartphones that supported both GSM and CDMA. The three major carriers not only use different LTE bands, but also Verizon and shortly AT&T (in February) have adopted a whitelist model where only select handsets can be activated on their networks. It's a much less open marketplace than it was five years ago.

How is this legal?

Ask Ajit Pai.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#27
post #16

Are there any updates on their GSM network? There are rumors that it will be also sunsetted, but I hope it will stay on. GSM is still useful because of its broad compatibility.

3G is supposed to shut down in July but curiously 2G will live until December 2022.

And even then it's controversial.

1st gen IoT devices used 2G, even when 3G was a thing. Things like emergency response in cars (eCall in Europe) and other types of infrastructure level "call home" technologies that were intended to work for decades but now must be upgraded before their 2G networks go dark.

There's a bunch of hard to access industrial sensors that have worked fine for 20 years but now crews have to be sent out to service and replace them because the network is going offline. Yes, that does sound like an expensive pain in the ass, you're right.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#28
post #25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly about drama around Boost Mobile. T-Mobile wanted to shut down their CDMA network on January 1, 2022. Boost (now owned by Dish) doesn't want to upgrade users that have handsets that don't work with VoLTE. Upgrading users involves sending them notices, giving them options of free handsets, shipping those handsets, getting the users to actually activate them, etc. While T-Mobile gave Boost nearly double t…

Are they legally required to offer replacement phones? Or is it just customer retention?

They’re a pay as you go MVNO so there’s no legal requirement on either end. Might have to deal with the fallout though.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#29
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed strange that T-Mobile would have a CDMA network, until you remembered that it came from Sprint. This seems like good news. I'm glad that starting with LTE all the carriers started agreeing on a single platform with SIM cards. Even though there are little nuances between each carrier, the fact that you can buy a single phone and have it work with the four (three now) major carriers is a big deal.

Not really. There have always been smartphones that supported both GSM and CDMA. The three major carriers not only use different LTE bands, but also Verizon and shortly AT&T (in February) have adopted a whitelist model where only select handsets can be activated on their networks. It's a much less open marketplace than it was five years ago.

By select handsets, I assume any big name handset, e.g. iPhone, Pixel, Galaxy, would be allowed, but a no-name handset wouldn't be allowed?

Isn't this similar to the pre-iPhone days, when if you brought an overseas GSM phone you had to go through some hoops to get it activated with Cingular/T-Mobile? I remember getting handsets from China and Europe and the reseller would have to circumvent something to get it activated on the networks.

Re: T-Mobile CDMA network shutting down soon

#30
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. There have always been smartphones that supported both GSM and CDMA. The three major carriers not only use different LTE bands, but also Verizon and shortly AT&T (in February) have adopted a whitelist model where only select handsets can be activated on their networks. It's a much less open marketplace than it was five years ago.

How is this legal?

This doesn't really go into how it's legal, but the situation around VoLTE has been difficult. It hasn't just been every phone working perfectly. Beyond that, it's possible to buy a phone that sort-of works.

For example, let's say that you're an AT&T customer and AT&T has 700MHz, 850MHz, 1900MHz, 1700MHz, and 2300MHz spectrum. You buy some foreign phone that supports 1900MHz. Great, now you're running a device that won't have coverage everywhere that AT&T has coverage. You're running a device that won't be using the full AT&T network and your speeds will be really slow compared to devices that fully support the network. You go somewhere with friends and you're like, "AT&T never works when I leave !" Except that AT&T isn't the problem - you're the problem. You complain that your device is always slow and how AT&T is crap - but it's your device that's the problem.

Semi-compatible devices are just terrible for network operators. Let's say that AT&T wants to move that 1900MHz spectrum to 5G - but now you have a device that will stop working. Do they need to reach out to you? Do they need to offer you an upgrade? Sure, you and 90% of people would be like, "I knew what I was getting in for and it's my problem." But omg the 10% of people that will yell and scream and the meetings you'll need to have with regulators and the delays in your plans and the free devices you'll offer them as part of a settlement and all the mailings and admin.

Offering tech support isn't cheap and it's more expensive when you're dealing with random crap from users. Now you have some rep on the phone who doesn't totally know what they're talking about trying to figure out why they're getting bad coverage on their kid's device while their device has good coverage. They don't want to hear, "well, you shouldn't have bought some POS off Amazon that isn't even meant for the US market." They're going to say that it's a compatible phone - compatible being a black/white issue, not something that's only partly compatible and will technically get coverage 80% of the time, but even then won't be able to use most of the network.

Part of it is a cultural thing. Americans are willing to accept that companies are evil and don't allow something. You'll go online and say, "how is this legal" and then go back to your life and the company has spent no money on you. But once something is allowed, there's no concept of "we'll allow this, but you're on your own if anything goes wrong and we'll charge your account $100 if you call us for support." Once you've been accepted as a paying customer, you (and by you, I mean at least 10% of the people who will do that) will demand the same premium service for your dollar.

"AT&T only allows certain phones." Ok, companies are crap, but we're all used to that. If they allow you to put a crappy device on their network, there's so much bad word of mouth, regulator crap, support complaints, etc. I'm not saying the world should be this way, but it certainly is.

So many restrictions that exist are there because the company loses almost nothing from the restriction while the pain in the ass they receive from not having that restriction simply isn't worth it. Keep that in mind when thinking about why companies do things that seem to have no benefit. A bunch of people were likely a complete pain in the ass over something that was the customer's fault, but that the company ultimately had to deal with.

And I think the big area is foreign phones. Phones made for the US that have the right network support for the carrier are good to have. Someone grabs a Galaxy A32 meant for non-US markets (rather than the A32 5G) and it doesn't support bands 12/13/17 which are the main coverage bands for T-Mobile/Verizon/AT&T. It does support bands 2 and 5 and AT&T and Verizon probably have ok coverage in cities with band 2, but in-building coverage will be worse and speeds will be slow. I think they have some band 5 LTE, but they weren't necessarily anticipating that being one of the bands customers would really be relying on. And now there's an angry customer, spreading their anger to their friends, tying up support resources and costing you money, using your network inefficiently, and demanding that the carrier fix the situation and the only way you can fix the situation is basically by giving them a free phone.

In terms of how it's legal, spectrum licenses didn't come with open access requirements. The one exception was Verizon's 700MHz licenses. Except that Verizon kinda redefined open-access to mean that they wouldn't lock their phones - not that you could use any phone you wanted on their network. Google had pushed for the open access requirements, but a decade later Google didn't care and regulators didn't care.

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