The Token Disconnect • Hacker News Board

Re: The Token Disconnect

#21

Post by h00dui » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

paulgb wrote: post #4

chrisco255 wrote: post #2

> These days I read a lot of cross-disciplinary commentary on the crypto asset bubble, and what strikes me as particularly strange is the sheer level of disconnect between people’s lived experience of this mania. Rather than do an investigation or analysis of some of the broader trends and successful applications of crypto, this article proceeds to make sweeping accusations devoid of earnest research. Here's what I w…

What would you say is the best example of a concrete, real-world use case for one of those tokens that would refute the article's claim that blockchains are “a solution in search of a problem”? I ask because a lot of these things (exchanging one USD-pegged token for another, borrowing a token for another token) seem like problems that wouldn't exist to begin with, without blockchains.

I personally think some of the community DAO tokens are interesting. For ex, $FWB (friends w benefits) is this membership type community where there are members + workers in a DAO like operation that utilizes a token for governance / membership etc. There are a lot of others popping up & I think in terms of tokens there is some room for improvement but some people are making money actually working in these systems.

Sometimes these memberships are in the forms of NFT(s)/tokens for access & that is interesting. DAOs trying to pool money for causes, that are interesting. It's early, yes.

The problems you write about - specifically the Token swapping id done because there was a problem (taxes).

Re: The Token Disconnect

#22

Post by kall » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

theamk wrote: post #3

chrisco255 wrote: post #2

> These days I read a lot of cross-disciplinary commentary on the crypto asset bubble, and what strikes me as particularly strange is the sheer level of disconnect between people’s lived experience of this mania. Rather than do an investigation or analysis of some of the broader trends and successful applications of crypto, this article proceeds to make sweeping accusations devoid of earnest research. Here's what I w…

How many people start their day and think: oh man, I have such a hard problem of "creating an on-chain marketplace with a sub-1000 line smart contract", I wish there were a product to solve this for me? If you want to show that blockchains are applicable to real world, you don't want to talk about implementation, but about UX. For example, you are a business and need money. Your choices are banks, VCs, and one of tho…

Quick answer to a possibly rhetorical question: You cannot get money from these lenders as a business, unless you have already created a crypto token as part of it.

Re: The Token Disconnect

#23

Post by theamk » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

prohobo wrote: post #9

paulgb wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you say is the best example of a concrete, real-world use case for one of those tokens that would refute the article's claim that blockchains are “a solution in search of a problem”? I ask because a lot of these things (exchanging one USD-pegged token for another, borrowing a token for another token) seem like problems that wouldn't exist to begin with, without blockchains.

Autonomous services (similar to vending machines): See PoolTogether, a service which before blockchain would be considered almost certainly a scam, and would be nearly impossible to audit. Because it's on Ethereum the contract is publicly auditable, and the rules are simple: insert currency into a pool, and have a chance of winning a %age of total interest earned once a week. No one owns the service. If the site goes…

Hm... people put money into a pool, and then there is a random chance of payoff? Sounds like plain lottery, something that is sold at every gas station ever. for PoolTogether, there is a twist that this seems to be incorporated with interest-bearing accounts, but presumably you can get the same effect by investing the money manually, and periodically withdrawing interest and using the money to buy the lottery tickets.

And "blockchain based wikipedia" sounds interesting but has a lot of real-world interaction, and so is substantially harder than existing examples which purely interact with blockchain.

Overall, this whole conversation reminds me of the the new programming languages:

- "My new language is very great! Look, it can do HTTP requests!"

- "But existing languages could do HTTP requests as well?"

- "Yes, but my language automatically deserializes the request using Mozart-Rachmaninoff type system, which eliminates the whole classes of the bugs. No other language can do that! I am going to write a new OS in this language now!"

Re: The Token Disconnect

#24

Post by h00dui » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

prohobo wrote: post #6

This is the guy who has been writing the same things about crypto for the past 2 years. He makes a lot of extremely arrogant assumptions then extrapolates from them to weave a narrative that confirms the biases of his readership. I'm not sure why he's constantly re-iterating his opinions with new blog posts... he hasn't seemed to update his knowledge at all since 2019, and his opinions haven't changed. He seemingly h…

I'd have to agree. If you've followed Stephen for some time you just begin to think he hates everything. Put the tweeter down S. Diehl.

Re: The Token Disconnect

#25

Post by prohobo » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

sandofsky wrote: post #10

prohobo wrote: post #6

This is the guy who has been writing the same things about crypto for the past 2 years. He makes a lot of extremely arrogant assumptions then extrapolates from them to weave a narrative that confirms the biases of his readership. I'm not sure why he's constantly re-iterating his opinions with new blog posts... he hasn't seemed to update his knowledge at all since 2019, and his opinions haven't changed. He seemingly h…

I've only read a few of his posts so far, and this one seems to do a good job explaining why VCs are so interested in it. It seems like you've simplifying his argument into simply "anti-cryptocurrency," when there are many interesting perspectives explain its irrational popularity. I think you could fill a book on it. On your argument about centralization, do you think that the momentum fueling its popularity is grou…

The frenzy is caused by the erosion of previous barriers to entry for investing (the same thing is happening on the traditional stock market), as well as the slow collapse of the middle class, leading people to taking risks and hoping for miracles. That rich people have noticed this and are taking advantage is no mystery. These problems have been caused by the current system, yes.

I don't blame the cryptobros for doing it, the same way I understand people drowning in rivers while searching for gold, and it's a problem that did not originate with the push for decentralization. Exchanges and financial institutions have created an environment that reinforces the worst aspects of modern capitalism, and crypto as a technology is the scapegoat that has been gleefully jumped on by the existing ruling class.

Re: The Token Disconnect

#26

Post by phillipcarter » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #2

> These days I read a lot of cross-disciplinary commentary on the crypto asset bubble, and what strikes me as particularly strange is the sheer level of disconnect between people’s lived experience of this mania. Rather than do an investigation or analysis of some of the broader trends and successful applications of crypto, this article proceeds to make sweeping accusations devoid of earnest research. Here's what I w…

> DAOs will reinvent all sorts of organizations and will make internet native communities self-funded and self-sustainable.

Just like ConstitutionDAO, right? https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/24/22800995/constitutiondao...

Re: The Token Disconnect

#27

Post by theamk » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

015a wrote: post #17

Daishiman wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not actually seeing how this helps decentralization. At some point if you're a rich-enough party you can just take over these networks with enough money and resources. There aren't that many mining pools for BTC, and the distribution of ownership of most coins still follows a power law. These systems don't really do anything to discourage that. Also you talk about the benefits of decentralization as if they were…

> At some point if you're a rich-enough party you can just take over these networks with enough money and resources. This is such a concern levied against cryptocurrency; why does no one levy the same concern against traditional publicly traded companies? That someone who is rich and powerful enough could simply take control of Apple, or Walmart (assuming they make >50% of their outstanding shares available for trade…

The takeover/shutdown is a totally valid concern with traditional companies as well, and happens all the time. See "our incredible journey" blog [0] for recent examples.

However, with traditional companies, we are protected by contract law -- if we are paying a company for service, they should at least refund the money (this is not ideal, see Nest Smart home shutdown, but at least something). And banks/investment firms have even more protection for users' accounts. This is possible because the company owners are operating within the law framework, and this framework, being very old and battle-tested, handles acquisitions properly.

No such things exists for crypto. If someone takes over BTC tomorrow, they can secretly siphon as much money as they can before driving the network to ground.

[0] https://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/

Re: The Token Disconnect

#28

Post by phillipcarter » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

015a wrote: post #12

paulgb wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you say is the best example of a concrete, real-world use case for one of those tokens that would refute the article's claim that blockchains are “a solution in search of a problem”? I ask because a lot of these things (exchanging one USD-pegged token for another, borrowing a token for another token) seem like problems that wouldn't exist to begin with, without blockchains.

Helium ( https://www.helium.com/); a decentralized mobile internet network operator which enables anyone to host radios and earn tokens for usage, without compromising the connection security of endpoint users. Filecoin ( https://filecoin.io/); an incentive layer on top of IPFS to create a decentralized long-term object storage system. Tradelens ( https://www.tradelens.com/); in development, AP Moller Maersk's enterp…

>The point is not to make a better system, in every way; the point is making a functional system that is decentralized, so it can operate in a trustless, geo-distributed, multi-party way.

Let me preface this by saying that I think it's deranged how ad-driven and surveillance-driven modern centralized tech has become.

Why is what you are saying good for me and others?

I can see some value in a currency that isn't specific to a government, so that I can more freely exchange it for good and services anywhere in the world. But I don't live everywhere, I mostly just live in one country. If I wave my hands and imagine a future that doesn't exist yet, maybe if much of my life is stuck in the "metaverse" then that could have benefits. But none of these things require decentralization or trustlessness (in fact, the "metaverse" looks to be headed towards more of the same centralization we see today).

Please don't say "you just don't get it" or whatever that so many crypto people do today. That isn't convincing.

Re: The Token Disconnect

#29

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

prohobo wrote: post #25

sandofsky wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only read a few of his posts so far, and this one seems to do a good job explaining why VCs are so interested in it. It seems like you've simplifying his argument into simply "anti-cryptocurrency," when there are many interesting perspectives explain its irrational popularity. I think you could fill a book on it. On your argument about centralization, do you think that the momentum fueling its popularity is grou…

The frenzy is caused by the erosion of previous barriers to entry for investing (the same thing is happening on the traditional stock market), as well as the slow collapse of the middle class, leading people to taking risks and hoping for miracles. That rich people have noticed this and are taking advantage is no mystery. These problems have been caused by the current system, yes. I don't blame the cryptobros for doi…

[deleted]

Re: The Token Disconnect

#30

Post by dcabrejas » Sat, Nov 27, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

prohobo wrote: post #6

This is the guy who has been writing the same things about crypto for the past 2 years. He makes a lot of extremely arrogant assumptions then extrapolates from them to weave a narrative that confirms the biases of his readership. I'm not sure why he's constantly re-iterating his opinions with new blog posts... he hasn't seemed to update his knowledge at all since 2019, and his opinions haven't changed. He seemingly h…

So true. In my opinion Stephen makes the mistake of mixing the technology (Blockchains) with the Ponzi schemes that some people use them for. To give an analogy, the internet is used for crime, but it would be wrong to say it was invented for that purpose and it should be abandoned. Blockchains are the only known way of having a digital cash system without a Central authority. Period. A small percentage of people are getting richer and richer with the status quo (banks, payment processors, etc...) They are milking people with their transaction fees, interests, cross border fees, etc... They are also bailed out with taxpayers money when they mismanage money. It's about time we cut out the middle man, and crypto is the only known way to do that!