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The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

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Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#21

> History would suggest we’ll screw this up. Space is a commons, and we humans have a terrible track record of despoiling commons. The question isn't "Will there eventually be some sort of incentive to clean up space junk?" (which would lead to some sort of free-market amelioration if not solution), it's "Can this be prevented?" Free market solutions to cleaning up commons often come too late and are imperfect. The o…

> Free market solutions to cleaning up commons often come too late and are imperfect.

In this case, the commons, if Kessler's predictions are correct, will become unusable much more quickly than has been the case with other commons in the past. That creates a much stronger free market incentive to clean the commons up.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#22

Steve Wozniak’s startup that has been working on mapping the stuff that’s out there in orbit: https://www.space.com/amp/steve-wozniak-privateer-hundreds-s...

Non-amp version: https://www.space.com/steve-wozniak-privateer-hundreds-satel...

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#23
post #2

Isn't part of the beauty of low earth orbit the fact that it is less susceptible to this, as free flying debris in LEO tends to encounter drag and get caught by the atmosphere? Because of this I'm not sure recent and upcoming LEO satellite deployments really factor into Kessler Syndrome that much, despite how numerous they will be. So, it seems a bit disingenuous for the article to make a big deal of LEO satellites.

The article doesn't make any effort to explain the orbital mechanics and ultimate dynamics of a Kessler Syndrome.

The assumption I think you're making is all debris remains in a fairly localized decaying orbit, which is not the case when a high energy collision occurs. The debris will fan out in two radial smearing patterns that loop back around at the collision point. Some pieces will hit more atmo for longer periods while others will achieve higher altitudes for a time and those can debris fields last longer. Should a LEO cascading collision event happen we would see lots of debris fields reaching higher orbits and a non-zero risk of those satellites being hit too.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#24

The solution for this problem is relatively simple. Satellites should be put in very low orbits. A satellite collision in high orbit is practically irreversible and will pollute space essentially forever. A satellite collision in low orbit is automatically cleaned up by the atmosphere, over a period of years to months to days depending on the orbit height. In the past it was not practical to put satellites in low orb…

I'd be interested in seeing a deep dive analysis comparing the costs in energy / environmental impact, as well as risk profiles from space debris of maintaining clouds of lower-earth orbit satellite vs constellations of higher-earth orbit satellites.

For the lower orbits I think there are some points to be made about the additional flights to maintain enough satellites, as well as the questions of what happens to all this junk as it de-orbits? If we're talking about sustainable infrastructure, what kind of new weird material/chemical build-ups are we going to be dealing with after 50 years of tens/hundreds of thousands of private satellites partially burning up and partially raining down on random spots on the planet?

Perhaps this is less of an issue than I'm imagining it will be, but I tend to think we'd be better off figuring out some kind of autonomous robot LEO satellite aggregation/recapture solution for cleaning up satellites from higher stable orbits that can operate farther and live longer. We should be allocating our launches to other projects.

Even without considering the emissions of launches, there is a significant resource energy/cost for each one and the noise pollution also takes a toll on surrounding ecosystem. If we're going to be ramping up launches to scale the mass to orbit, we're also going to be scaling those negative externalities. I think we really need to make sure the mass we're taking up is worth it and not just governed by whoever happens to have the most money to burn.

I can imagine the very near future where people are paying to launch crypto-mining satellites for memes, or some other such wasteful nonsense.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#25

The solution for this problem is relatively simple. Satellites should be put in very low orbits. A satellite collision in high orbit is practically irreversible and will pollute space essentially forever. A satellite collision in low orbit is automatically cleaned up by the atmosphere, over a period of years to months to days depending on the orbit height. In the past it was not practical to put satellites in low orb…

I agree with all you are saying but hope one point can be made more clear and that is;

"Heaven forbid that it collide with something and produce a debris cloud that can never be fully cleaned up in our lifetimes."

At that altitude the time for natural orbital decay is not within our lifetimes by tens of thousands of years. If mammoths and saber tooth tigers littered up there it would still be a hazard to us today.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#26

It's a problem, but I don't think it's that intractable of a problem, since any company launching products into space has an incentive not to have them destroyed by a ring of planetary trash. Cool essay by the way. Learned something new.

I'll just leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

I don't think that applies in this context, since any space debris will damage space ventures, cutting into profits.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#27

It's a problem, but I don't think it's that intractable of a problem, since any company launching products into space has an incentive not to have them destroyed by a ring of planetary trash. Cool essay by the way. Learned something new.

The private sector might disregard long term risk for short term profit, as they did countless times with the environment. This was mentioned in the article.

I think they will too. There won't be any incentive in the short-term to do anything about it. I just don't think it's an intractable problem (as in, impossible to solve over the span of a century).

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#28
post #21

> History would suggest we’ll screw this up. Space is a commons, and we humans have a terrible track record of despoiling commons. The question isn't "Will there eventually be some sort of incentive to clean up space junk?" (which would lead to some sort of free-market amelioration if not solution), it's "Can this be prevented?" Free market solutions to cleaning up commons often come too late and are imperfect. The o…

> Free market solutions to cleaning up commons often come too late and are imperfect. In this case, the commons, if Kessler's predictions are correct, will become unusable much more quickly than has been the case with other commons in the past. That creates a much stronger free market incentive to clean the commons up.

Sure, but the incentives are still structured the same, towards despoiling the commons. Each individual/org makes more by exploiting the commons and increasing the risk than by spending more and helping clean it up.

This is just like overfishing - every fisherman is motivated to catch more fish himself, rather than to leave the stock to grow, so it gets fished until the population collapses. And, they keep fishing right into the collapse, they don't even stop when their haul declines, just invest more in becoming more efficient at depleting the commons faster.

The likely result is that everyone will keep putting up satellites, making minimal safety measures for Cover-Your-Ass publicity, and then it'll cascade collapse one day soon.

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#29
post #24

The solution for this problem is relatively simple. Satellites should be put in very low orbits. A satellite collision in high orbit is practically irreversible and will pollute space essentially forever. A satellite collision in low orbit is automatically cleaned up by the atmosphere, over a period of years to months to days depending on the orbit height. In the past it was not practical to put satellites in low orb…

I'd be interested in seeing a deep dive analysis comparing the costs in energy / environmental impact, as well as risk profiles from space debris of maintaining clouds of lower-earth orbit satellite vs constellations of higher-earth orbit satellites. For the lower orbits I think there are some points to be made about the additional flights to maintain enough satellites, as well as the questions of what happens to all…

These satellites are designed to fully burn up on reentry, so no solid debris reaches the ground. Meanwhile, many tons of space dust burn up in the atmosphere every day, and meteors large enough to hit the ground happen multiple times a day on average as well.

Space dust contains plenty of things that are more hazardous than anything in these satellites. According to [1] the abundances on this page multiplied by [2] 40000 tons per year, the stuff naturally hitting the atmosphere each year includes 0.3 kg uranium, 1.6 kg thorium, 3 kg radioactive isotopes of potassium, 10 kg mercury, 18 kg cadmium, 50 kg lead, 72 kg arsenic, and 120 tons of chromium, among other things. This stuff burns up in the atmosphere all day long, and has for billions of years.

As far as emissions, one Falcon 9 launch emits 300 tons of CO2 and they've been launching one or two times per month to build out the Starlink constellation. Meanwhile commercial aviation emits 2 million tons per day and is still a small fraction of the world total.

[1] https://periodictable.com/Properties/A/MeteoriteAbundance.v....

[2] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4419-8694-...

Re: The Kessler Syndrome: Space junk in orbit

#30
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free market solutions to cleaning up commons often come too late and are imperfect. In this case, the commons, if Kessler's predictions are correct, will become unusable much more quickly than has been the case with other commons in the past. That creates a much stronger free market incentive to clean the commons up.

Sure, but the incentives are still structured the same, towards despoiling the commons. Each individual/org makes more by exploiting the commons and increasing the risk than by spending more and helping clean it up. This is just like overfishing - every fisherman is motivated to catch more fish himself, rather than to leave the stock to grow, so it gets fished until the population collapses. And, they keep fishing ri…

> the incentives are still structured the same, towards despoiling the commons

No, they aren't; that's just the point. When the commons becomes unusable, nobody can exploit it any more. And if that happens quickly enough, the short term benefit of exploiting it is not sufficient to outweigh the long term cost of it becoming unusable. That seems to me to be happening in the case under discussion. And once it happens, there are only two options open: (1) figure out how to not exploit the commons, i.e., all the parties who want to use it have to come to agreement on how to use it sustainably; or (2) nobody gets to use it at all. If there are significant benefits to be gained by using the commons, as there certainly are in this case, there is a strong incentive for the parties to figure out how to do option #1 instead of just giving up and taking option #2.

> they keep fishing right into the collapse, they don't even stop when their haul declines, just invest more in becoming more efficient at depleting the commons faster.

The reason this works for overfishing (where it has indeed happened) is that fishing is not the only source of food. Once overfishing has completely depleted a fishery, people just switch to other food sources.

In this case, there is only one Earth orbital space, and it doesn't seem like there is any viable alternative to providing the kinds of services that are being provided by satellites. But if that turns out not to be the case, if some of the players are able to find alternatives, then yes, that would increase the likelihood that Earth orbital space would not be cleaned up by the individual market participants.

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