Without parental leave I might be dead • Hacker News Board

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#21

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

Lots of folks out there who don’t want to do newborn work or spend time with their family, anecdotally. It’s a chore, not a benefit.

Higher level, the value of children to parents is declining based on total fertility rate declines.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/paid-paternity... (Men who receive paid paternity leave in Spain want fewer children, study finds)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... (Does paternity leave reduce fertility?)

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#22

Post by orangepanda » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

Might be different in other countries, but where I live only one parent can take the full 18 months leave. For the other parent, its only a few weeks. In practice, the one that's paid less takes the leave, and that's usually the mother.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#23

Post by moron4hire » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

I think the pandemic has handily proven that C-suite executives are really good at generating whatever reality distortion fields are necessary to ignore any evidence contrary to their own personal comfort and how they "always did things".

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#24

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #18

The problem with parental leave is the same problem with universal health care or any entitlement that isn’t utilized by the entire population at the same rate constantly. Things like roads (and even then there are many locales with crappy roads) are easy to justify. Things like parental leave and universal health care are hard because the percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit wil…

> percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit will inherently fall with a small percentage.

The percentage of society deriving a benefit from a healthy workforce is very high. On the order of 100%.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#25

Post by bko » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

I took less than the allotted time. I was bored sitting at home. Much of the first 3 months is feeding the baby, something I am physically unequipped to do.

I enjoy work and the comradery of my co-workers. I was working from home anyway, so there was no long commute. And it gave me something to do. I'm a programmer. I like my work. It gives me an outlet for my creativity and allows me to bond with co-workers. And I care about the product and deliverables I'm working on. I don't like letting my coworkers down as they cover for me.

I took another 2 weeks after my wife went back to work.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#26

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

My career is basically non-existent. I realize that I have a job, not a career. I took my full amount. I think it indirectly hurt my rating that year. I took family medical leave this year. It appears that indirectly hurt my rating this year.

By indirectly, I mean that when they compare me to the other people they don't seem to be prorating my "stats" for that extra time off.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#27

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #11

bko wrote: post #7

I believe parental leave should be provided, but I don't see how anyone expects employers to shoulder the burden of providing paid parental (in reality maternity) leave without an implicit bias towards hiring men (or at least paying women less). You can provide the same benefit to men and women, but let's be honest, even when available most men take only a fraction of the allowed time. I guess you can force people to…

> most men take only a fraction of the allowed time I truly don't understand this, and each time I see the stats on it sit in even greater disbelief. Why would anyone turn down the opportunity to spend, for an awful lot of companies, fully paid time off work to spend time with their new family? Guessing I'm much less "career-minded" than of lot of these guys, but it makes zero sense to me that you wouldn't stretch th…

[deleted]

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#28

Post by KaiserPro » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

I really cant understand the logic of forcing women back into work after 2-4 weeks.

Its just not beneficial for anyone.

The mum is utterly frazzled.

The employer gets half an employee back

Society is conditioned to think that the only practical way to raise a baby is to give up on work/get live in care.

now, to look at it from a "my mum managed, I don't want to undermine the american nuclear family" point of view:

Yes, mums working is an anathema, but given that exceedingly difficult to own a good house, have good health insurance and have an economically inactive partner at home, I suspect the problem here isn't the mum. I suspect its the salami slicing of wages to the average joe/joelle.

Even if it undermines the american nuclear family, having such a big obstacle to the "correct"[1] type of family having babies is going to undermine the "correct" family having babies. Which means one's chosen view of family dies out with inflation.

Given that _every_ other "civilised" country has some sort of rudimentary care for new parents, which doesn't acutally cost that much, I can't see any reasonable objection to not having it.

[1]I'm not going to define what correct is, its divisive and allows people to project what they think is wrong with "the other side" who ever they might be, rather than engage with the specifics at hand.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#29

Post by Freak_NL » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #15

>But if you are a person in America who has given birth or knows someone who has given birth, this is just a summary of a sobering and absolutely barbaric reality. It's just the US, not america, one writing for nytimes should know the difference https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/brazil/healthcare/pregnancy... >>Brazil...In 2008, maternity leave was extended from 120 to 180 days https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worl…

'America' can theoretically mean either the US or the two continents of the Americas depending on the context, but a US newspaper will invariably use 'America' to mean 'The United States of America'.

In fact most people proficient in English (second language learners included) will expect that 'America' means the USA. Surely you're not hearing this for the first time? Anyone who wishes to reference the continents tends to use the plural form.

Re: Without parental leave I might be dead

#30

Post by onionisafruit » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #18

The problem with parental leave is the same problem with universal health care or any entitlement that isn’t utilized by the entire population at the same rate constantly. Things like roads (and even then there are many locales with crappy roads) are easy to justify. Things like parental leave and universal health care are hard because the percentage of those utilizing will be low and the disproportionate benefit wil…

I don’t think I will agree with you, but I’m curious to see how paid parental leave is like a Ponzi scheme.