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Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

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Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#21

Post by dr_dshiv »

cletus wrote: post #11

So let's do some math. Let's consider natural gas. According to the US government [1], natural gas produced 1.358x10^12 kWh of power and 5.6x10^8 metric tons of CO2 so 1 metric ton of CO2 equates to ~2400 kWh of produced power. This post suggests the energy cost is ~230kWh/ton. This is an important sanity check because it means that (capital costs aside) and if it scales you could technically remain carbon neutral fo…

>I'll repeat here--that I don't believe altruism will solve greenhouse gas emissions and global warming: it'll only be solved when it becomes economic to do so.

Completely agree. We need governments to ensure externalities (both positive and negative) are reflected in market pricing so that economic forces can operate efficiently.

Implication: there must be a debt to pay for past and present GHG output. It should not be punitive. But it should be clear and predictable.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#22

Post by johnchristopher »

cletus wrote: post #11

So let's do some math. Let's consider natural gas. According to the US government [1], natural gas produced 1.358x10^12 kWh of power and 5.6x10^8 metric tons of CO2 so 1 metric ton of CO2 equates to ~2400 kWh of produced power. This post suggests the energy cost is ~230kWh/ton. This is an important sanity check because it means that (capital costs aside) and if it scales you could technically remain carbon neutral fo…

Do we need something like... Business, corporations can't do one thing: not making money. If they don't and can't pay taxes they go bankrupt and can't operate anymore.

Can we have a carbon bankrupt ? If a company can't prove they are not emitting CO2 or getting CO2 out of the atmosphere then they are not allowed to operate anymore ?

I know it's nickelodeonsimplistic but can't carbon emissions be considered more important than money when deciding to allow companies to operate ?

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#23

Post by cogman10 »

andi999 wrote: post #14
cletus wrote: post #11

So let's do some math. Let's consider natural gas. According to the US government [1], natural gas produced 1.358x10^12 kWh of power and 5.6x10^8 metric tons of CO2 so 1 metric ton of CO2 equates to ~2400 kWh of produced power. This post suggests the energy cost is ~230kWh/ton. This is an important sanity check because it means that (capital costs aside) and if it scales you could technically remain carbon neutral fo…

So reducing petrol demand (let's say by switching to electric cars) might reduce the economic incentives of carbon capture significantly, interesting thought.

The economics of a natural carbon market will never work out. There is simply too much carbon available for too low of a price.

The carbon capture market NEEDS to have public funding/intervention to make it profitable.

Now, carbon capture will be important if we want to have a chance of undoing atmospheric CO2, but IMO, while now it the time to invest in research it's not the time to deploy. More public/government funds need to be pushed towards limiting CO2 output and eliminating sources of CO2.

The notion of carbon capture is much the same as having urine capture in a swimming pool. There is no way it won't cost more energy to remove than it produced when released.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#24

Post by ericd »

londons_explore wrote: post #20
punnerud wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of 230kWh is around €30 in Norway (lower during the summer), the CO2 quota price is around €60/ton. Norway is now building pipes to pump CO2 down to the old oil wells. Seems like it starting to get economically profitable to grab CO2 from the air and sell the quota?

> Norway is now building pipes to pump CO2 down to the old oil wells. You should know that injecting old oil wells with CO2 helps them produce more oil. The CO2 becomes carbonic acid under pressure, which then dissolves pores in the rock wider, allowing more oil and gas to escape. Also, it looks pretty doubtful that CO2 will stay in gas wells for a long time. Eventually it'll find some fissure and due to the acidity…

Yeah, it’s been branded “enhanced oil recovery”, and iirc it’s currently the most economically rewarding use for CO2.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#25

Post by cletus »

andi999 wrote: post #14
cletus wrote: post #11

So let's do some math. Let's consider natural gas. According to the US government [1], natural gas produced 1.358x10^12 kWh of power and 5.6x10^8 metric tons of CO2 so 1 metric ton of CO2 equates to ~2400 kWh of produced power. This post suggests the energy cost is ~230kWh/ton. This is an important sanity check because it means that (capital costs aside) and if it scales you could technically remain carbon neutral fo…

So reducing petrol demand (let's say by switching to electric cars) might reduce the economic incentives of carbon capture significantly, interesting thought.

Electrifying vehicles at a mass scale actually has a lot of problems, not the least of which is does the grid support the ability to transmit that much power. In many places it does not.

That aside, electrifying vehicles doesn't necessarily reduce emissions significantly. It may simply shift the emissions from individual vehicles to the power plant that produces the power that charges the cars.

Now this is nearly always a net positive: large-scale fossil-fuel burning power generation is pretty much always more efficient (even accounting for transmission power loss) but the point is that emissions don't go to zero.

Another interesting thought: the price of gasoline acts as a barrier to vehicle usage to some degree. As in, knowing you have to spend $50 to fill up the tank affects your behaviour to varying degrees. Well with electric vehicles depending on where you live that marginal cost might be I wonder if that means that with a fully electrified vehicle fleet, people will end up driving more because of the lower marginal costs.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#26

Post by lrem »

punnerud wrote: post #13
cletus wrote: post #11

So let's do some math. Let's consider natural gas. According to the US government [1], natural gas produced 1.358x10^12 kWh of power and 5.6x10^8 metric tons of CO2 so 1 metric ton of CO2 equates to ~2400 kWh of produced power. This post suggests the energy cost is ~230kWh/ton. This is an important sanity check because it means that (capital costs aside) and if it scales you could technically remain carbon neutral fo…

The cost of 230kWh is around €30 in Norway (lower during the summer), the CO2 quota price is around €60/ton. Norway is now building pipes to pump CO2 down to the old oil wells. Seems like it starting to get economically profitable to grab CO2 from the air and sell the quota?

Note that €30 is obtained with pure CO2 as input. What's the cost of going from air to that? Or even from exhaust to that?

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#27

Post by adrian_b »

WJW wrote: post #15
marcosdumay wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hum... You are comparing a process that separates CO2 from a gas with a process that chemically breaks CO2. Those things do not compare.

That depends on what you are trying to achieve? Sure, the captured CO2 is still CO2, but you can put it in an empty gas field somewhere and the net effect on atmospheric CO2 (which is what we are concerned about with regards to climate change) is the same as if you had split apart the molecules.

The process described in the paper can be used only after CO2 is separated from the air, not instead of it.

Nevertheless converting CO2 into a solid reduces the volume one thousand times and makes its storage very simple.

I doubt that there could be found enough subterranean spaces that can be sealed well enough, in which to pump as much CO2 as it would be needed to reduce the concentration in the air.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#28

Post by franky47 »

aychedee wrote: post #4

So, for $4.3 trillion dollars / year we can turn the 43 billion tonnes of CO2 we emit per year into oxygen and carbon crust. Which is twice the annual revenue for the global oil industry.

That is assuming it takes less than a year to convert all that amount. At the given rate of .1 liter/minute, you'd need a lot of those installations or quite the scale-up.

Re: Gallium helps convert CO2 into Carbon and Oxygen

#30

Post by ericd »

aychedee wrote: post #4

So, for $4.3 trillion dollars / year we can turn the 43 billion tonnes of CO2 we emit per year into oxygen and carbon crust. Which is twice the annual revenue for the global oil industry.

Well, don’t forget the cost to concentrate CO2 from 440 ppm in the atmosphere to 10^6 ppm. The current cost of direct air capture that I’ve seen is about $600-$1000/ton (via Climeworks).

Capturing CO2 from flue gas at power plants should be a good bit cheaper, but I think it’s still significant.

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