The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#21

Post by dudul » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Companies and institutions just need to realize that Twitter is not the general population. How many TV shows are regularly trending on twitter but have no audience? How many products are vilified but still sell just fine?

Marketing firms have been selling the lie that they analyze twitter to build campaigns, pr, etc. Their customers just need to realize that it's just BS.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#22

Post by wepple » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #13

> MIT buckled, becoming yet another major institution in American life to demonstrate that the commitment to free speech it trumpets on its website The what? I'm an MIT alum and I cannot remember anything about a commitment to free speech on the website. I don't see one now, and I can hardly see any relevant search results for `"free speech" site:mit.edu` - a few blogs and research papers, but nothing about a commitm…

I agree that it doesn’t seem trumpeted, and the author is really pushing his point quite far, but your point that they don’t seem to take a stand on free speech would appear to be incorrect:

https://handbook.mit.edu/expression

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#23

Post by tux3 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

lugged wrote: post #18

brylie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet, and all existing services, is based in physical locations, subject to local and international laws, governed by the decisions of real people with diverse motivations, and capable of influencing real-world outcomes on many scales.

I don't have an account, what are you gonna do? @ my name?

You posted "k.", and then edited it into this comment, but both of those are very low-effort.

If Twitter had no impact on the real world whatsoever, do you think everyone else would be writing so much about it?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#24

Post by geofft » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:40 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Isn't this exactly the world that free speech / pro-liberty advocates want?

I don't have any power to fire someone from their job; I'm not their boss. But I do have the right to make my views about them freely known. That's my right to free speech. And I can also decide whether to patronize their business or not. That's my right to economic freedom - to not be in an authoritarian society where the government tells me what I have to spend my money on. And their boss has the right to decide whether to employ them or not. That's the boss's economic freedom and at-will employment.

If I'm threatening the boss with physical harm (violating the NAP, as some would say), then I'm clearly in the wrong. But if I'm making my opinion known, and their boss agrees, isn't that the intended effect of discourse? What is the point of free speech if there isn't the possibility that people might be influenced by listening to that speech?

I don't see any way to cancel Twitter mobs that doesn't itself uphold cancel culture and destroy liberty.

(In any case, in the article at hand, "Twitter mobs" isn't a fully accurate descriptor. The quoted tweet was from an alum. The ability for alumni to contact their university and make their opinions known - and have their opinions be taken with more weight than those of the general public - has existed long before Twitter and will exist long after.)

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#25

Post by arp242 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

lugged wrote: post #18

brylie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet, and all existing services, is based in physical locations, subject to local and international laws, governed by the decisions of real people with diverse motivations, and capable of influencing real-world outcomes on many scales.

I don't have an account, what are you gonna do? @ my name?

That is missing the point; it's not about you are or aren't on Twitter, it's that they are. Twitter encourages contextless "outrage", and things escalate from there. Sometimes justified, sometimes less so.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#26

Post by fighterpilot » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:42 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #6

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

> How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Stop listening to them? EDIT: That's especially effective since the Twitter mobs keep moving targets every couple of weeks anyway. They don't have any patience.

It's not that simple. We have a collective action problem. The first mover sticks out like a sore thumb (or tall poppy) and takes all the heat from the mob. If everyone simultaneously became sensible and simultaneously refused to bend to the mob, the problem would go away, but it's difficult for heterogeneous agents to coordinate in this way. Being brave and taking the first step entails a lot of private cost and a lot of public benefit, which is why so few choose to do it.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#27

Post by geofft » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

wepple wrote: post #22

geofft wrote: post #13

> MIT buckled, becoming yet another major institution in American life to demonstrate that the commitment to free speech it trumpets on its website The what? I'm an MIT alum and I cannot remember anything about a commitment to free speech on the website. I don't see one now, and I can hardly see any relevant search results for `"free speech" site:mit.edu` - a few blogs and research papers, but nothing about a commitm…

I agree that it doesn’t seem trumpeted, and the author is really pushing his point quite far, but your point that they don’t seem to take a stand on free speech would appear to be incorrect: https://handbook.mit.edu/expression

Fair - but my reading of that page is that it's actually not a commitment to free speech (as the author would see it, at least), it's basically saying that insisting on exercising your right to freedom of expression when you know people would be offended is unwise and discouraged in this subculture. If anything, the incident described in the article is pretty consistent with this page.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#28

Post by lugged » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

tux3 wrote: post #23

lugged wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have an account, what are you gonna do? @ my name?

You posted "k.", and then edited it into this comment, but both of those are very low-effort. If Twitter had no impact on the real world whatsoever, do you think everyone else would be writing so much about it?

Wasnt sure how to respond, sue me.

My original post was a reference, I guess ya'll haven't caught the special yet.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#29

Post by version_five » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

wepple wrote: post #15

ekianjo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Stop listening to them? EDIT: That's especially effective since the Twitter mobs keep moving targets every couple of weeks anyway. They don't have any patience.

The power they have isn’t over us, it’s over institutions and businesses who seem to bend to the will of the mob. I’d like to see some data on whether a Twitter storm in a teacup has any measurable negative consequences for a typical large organization, and whether they need to listen as often as they do.

The more decoupled an organization's or its leaders' incentives are from the "market" - the more risk averse they become. Everything is about keeping your head down and avoiding controversy.

The goal for many orgs now is not to make customers happy anymore, it's to avoid the ire of a small group, and keep rent seeking.

As we move towards post-capitalism this will only get worse.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#30

Post by SamuelAdams » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #6

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

> How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Stop listening to them? EDIT: That's especially effective since the Twitter mobs keep moving targets every couple of weeks anyway. They don't have any patience.

Exactly. Considering Twitter accounts and likes and retweet’s can be bought amplifying a particular message might only represent less than 10 actual people.

Additionally I’ve never discussed with someone in real life, person to person, about a single Twitter “cancelation” effort. If these issues were truly significant, they would engage the (actual) media, engage (in this case) with official university complaint systems, etc.

These things take more time and effort than retweeting a hashtag though, and most people won’t follow through with it. Which tells me they’re really not all that bothered about it in the first place.