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The Plague of the Poor

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Re: The Plague of the Poor

#21

Post by mkr-hn »

jzellis wrote: post #17

The amazing thing is that there are still nominally bright people out there who regard dismissing this idiot crap as being "closed-minded". I do not have to consider every argument presented to me, particularly the ones that run counter to things I know to be true. If someone comes to me with the flat earth theory, I don't need to hear them out. When someone comes to me with pseudoscientific bullshit about "natural i…

More to the point: debating the goofballs takes time away from hearing what more moderate people have to say. The Alex Joneses and Billy Grahams of the world take air from people who (for example) think gay frogs sound like a fun time, or favor progressive reform within Evangelicalism. A lot of people have very normal, human fears about the vaccine and still got vaccinated, and those are the people to talk to. People like that represent the larger portion of views in intractable policy debates, not people who are completely unmovable.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#22

Post by travisparker »

Aeolun wrote: post #11

I’m willing to read these articles, and even sort of willing to consider other viewpoints, but this is mostly garbage. What stands out is the authors’ favor of natural immunity being better than vaccination. It may well be, but it has this small caveat that you need to have had the virus to become naturally immune. E.g. you need to take that 1-2% of not surviving entirely, and if too many people take that chance at t…

That “1-2%” is FAR too high of an estimate.

Although regional numbers vary of course, in my state the death rate by county has averaged between 0.0004 and 0.0032 percent.

Or, in decimal notation, 0.000004-0.000032

These numbers were calculated based on the Covid data repository maintained by the New York Times (https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data) and US Census data (http://www.census.gov/).

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#23

Post by robomartin »

jzellis wrote: post #17

The amazing thing is that there are still nominally bright people out there who regard dismissing this idiot crap as being "closed-minded". I do not have to consider every argument presented to me, particularly the ones that run counter to things I know to be true. If someone comes to me with the flat earth theory, I don't need to hear them out. When someone comes to me with pseudoscientific bullshit about "natural i…

I think you have to be careful about this. Reality isn't a single variable problem. It is a complex multivariate system. You are reducing a group of people to an unreasonable caricature that isn't really representative of reality.

If you want to change the world for the better, you have to engage with them. The process can be slow and painful, but there is no progress without engagement. This also means cancelling them is a horrible idea. You want these discussions in the open. Over time some of them learn about the errors in their thinking and move on to take more reasonable positions.

That does NOT happen by saying things like "stupid and very awful people who learned just enough in college to sound reasonable and thoughtful". That, frankly, is elitist and condescending. If you think you are so smart, figure out a way to help them. Hint: You can't help people if the conversation starts with: You are stupid. I don't want to hear what you have to say. I don't want to talk to you.

Sure, you don't have to talk to every single one of them, but, if your goal is to be the smart one in the room and help make a better society, you have to embrace them in order to have a shot at educating them.

I am an atheist and find religion to be mostly ridiculous. I have had Born Again Christian friends shouting at me at the top of their lungs to convince me to accept Jesus or my entire family would be damned (etc., etc.). Did I walk away from them? No way. We remained friends and had interesting conversations over many years. No, I did not turn anyone, but I guarantee you I made them think about reality in a different way.

Respect goes both ways and has to be the foundation of positive and constructive relationships. One one occasion, when my business was doing badly in the 2008 economic downturn, a couple of them asked if they could pray over me as we went into a trade show where we were exhibiting to try to get some business. My response? "Yes. Thank you. It would be an honor". Why did I say that as an atheist? Because, as much as I do not believe one angstrom of what they stand for, their offer came from nothing but love and caring for my situation. What kind of an asshole would refuse that? Live and let live. And teach whenever possible.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#24

Post by commandlinefan »

mkr-hn wrote: post #21
jzellis wrote: post #17

The amazing thing is that there are still nominally bright people out there who regard dismissing this idiot crap as being "closed-minded". I do not have to consider every argument presented to me, particularly the ones that run counter to things I know to be true. If someone comes to me with the flat earth theory, I don't need to hear them out. When someone comes to me with pseudoscientific bullshit about "natural i…

More to the point: debating the goofballs takes time away from hearing what more moderate people have to say. The Alex Joneses and Billy Grahams of the world take air from people who (for example) think gay frogs sound like a fun time, or favor progressive reform within Evangelicalism. A lot of people have very normal, human fears about the vaccine and still got vaccinated, and those are the people to talk to. People…

Except that nobody is trying to silence flat-earthers, or 9/11 “truthers”, or moon-landing deniers, because we all know they’re nuts. They are trying to silence vaccine skeptics… which just makes me wonder if there’s something there worth paying attention to.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#25

Post by robomartin »

temp0826 wrote: post #16
robomartin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancel culture isn't a good thing for society. If you want the freedom to present your case you have to tolerate and accept the idea that you will be exposed to content you do not agree with and might even find to be repugnant. Hard-core anti-vaxxers are on the wrong side of science. We should not silence them. We should ask ourselves why they have such beliefs and understand what we have to do to improve their intel…

I can't help but think about Discordian reality tunnels and picture some folks giggling on a forum somewhere about their latest creation whenever anti-vax or flat earth etc comes up

Sure, it's silly. Yet, how do you improve their intellectual standing in life if you ignore them? If you ignore a problem it does not tend to get better on its own. It grows (like that damn leak under our kitchen sink I have been ignoring for weeks).

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#26

Post by mkr-hn »

commandlinefan wrote: post #24
mkr-hn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More to the point: debating the goofballs takes time away from hearing what more moderate people have to say. The Alex Joneses and Billy Grahams of the world take air from people who (for example) think gay frogs sound like a fun time, or favor progressive reform within Evangelicalism. A lot of people have very normal, human fears about the vaccine and still got vaccinated, and those are the people to talk to. People…

Except that nobody is trying to silence flat-earthers, or 9/11 “truthers”, or moon-landing deniers, because we all know they’re nuts. They are trying to silence vaccine skeptics… which just makes me wonder if there’s something there worth paying attention to.

I edited a little bit in to tie it back to the vaccine thing while you were posting your comment. Those lines might address your comment.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#29

Post by stapled_socks »

> Firing thousands of workers for not being vaccinated (including those, to repeat, who have natural immunity through infection) is also unprecedented

Is this true in the US? It seems unreasonable.

What I've seen in the EU is that antibodies and frequent PCR testing are deemed just as acceptable as vaccination, and I think it makes sense.

Re: The Plague of the Poor

#30

Post by generj »

travisparker wrote: post #22
Aeolun wrote: post #11

I’m willing to read these articles, and even sort of willing to consider other viewpoints, but this is mostly garbage. What stands out is the authors’ favor of natural immunity being better than vaccination. It may well be, but it has this small caveat that you need to have had the virus to become naturally immune. E.g. you need to take that 1-2% of not surviving entirely, and if too many people take that chance at t…

That “1-2%” is FAR too high of an estimate. Although regional numbers vary of course, in my state the death rate by county has averaged between 0.0004 and 0.0032 percent. Or, in decimal notation, 0.000004-0.000032 These numbers were calculated based on the Covid data repository maintained by the New York Times ( https://github.com/nytimes/covid-19-data ) and US Census data ( http://www.census.gov/ ).

Something is horribly wrong with your math.

0.000004 * 320,000,000 = 1,280 deaths for the entire USA. Your higher estimate yields 10,240 deaths. In reality we’ve had at least 700,000 deaths.

For those who are infected, the naive Case Fatality Rate is about 1-2%. See for example, https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid There are reasons to suspect the real rate is lower in several countries - many places under test cases, so the denominator in deaths/cases is too small.

Additionally, this rate isn’t static - we were seeing upwards of 10% death rates before effective treatments became known and available.

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