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Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

#21

Post by r3trohack3r »

sayonaraman wrote: post #7

I think "consciousness" is such a fuzzy term that talking about is at best premature when we are still trying to understand more fundamental things which underlie cognition, such as how human (or mice) memory works, or how the "cognitive maps" which drive spatial navigation generalize to navigation in abstract "concept spaces", how these "concepts" are represented, or how networks of neurons communicate and synchroni…

I’m not sure it’s fuzzy. Hard to describe with words, sure, but not fuzzy. I have a high degree of certainty when someone else is talking about their own consciousness and when they’re not.

For example, when an optometrist or neurologist talks about “sight” they’re talking about the biochemical mechanisms that allow us to see. When I read Plato say “I see therefor I am” it was clear to me he was describing the metaphysical act of personal perception. He was describing the “observer” that was present in the moment, perceiving the biochemical process, not sight itself.

Consciousness is something you likely have. But we (humans) don’t know what it is. To my knowledge, we don’t even know where to start looking for it. Consciousness belongs to the mystics today, by default, because science can not claim it. There isn’t something we can hold and point to saying “this, this is what the mystics call a soul.”

Re: Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

#22

Post by slibhb »

> I just read a wonderful novel, Klara and the Sun, by Kazuo Ishiguro, which is a beautiful articulation of all the ways in which having systems that give the appearance of being conscious can screw with our human psyches and minds.

Boy, that is not at all what I got from Klara and the Sun.

Re: Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

#24

Post by colechristensen »

sayonaraman wrote: post #7

I think "consciousness" is such a fuzzy term that talking about is at best premature when we are still trying to understand more fundamental things which underlie cognition, such as how human (or mice) memory works, or how the "cognitive maps" which drive spatial navigation generalize to navigation in abstract "concept spaces", how these "concepts" are represented, or how networks of neurons communicate and synchroni…

Feynman was perhaps a little bit too skeptical of some things.

Everything at one time escaped basic explanation from parts (and there always will be, you can't really explain why the standard model, or whatever more fundamental system which might surpass it)

Consciousness is on the edge of being understood quite a lot better as neurobiology is progressing quite quickly.

Re: Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

#26

Post by juliangamble »

Theory of Mind/Metacognition/Sense of Agency is well defined in the literature based on decades of research: https://aeon.co/essays/is-there-a-symmetry-between-metacogni...

For the latest in consciousness research - look at: https://arxiv.org/abs/2109.12798 Here (p14) they make artificial consciousness testable by making mental models of action, and the conscious 'thought' is the difference between what the action that was expected vs the action that occurred.

Re: Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

#27

Post by goatlover »

slibhb wrote: post #22

> I just read a wonderful novel, Klara and the Sun, by Kazuo Ishiguro, which is a beautiful articulation of all the ways in which having systems that give the appearance of being conscious can screw with our human psyches and minds. Boy, that is not at all what I got from Klara and the Sun.

Indeed. But also since it’s told from Klara’s pov, she is clearly conscious, and not just appears to be. You can’t write from first person without that person being conscious. The closest I’ve seen otherwise is Cibola Burn in the It Reaches Out chapters, but that’s really third person omniscient telling the readers what is and is not conscious about the protomolecule. Miller yes, the reaching out, no by design.

Anyway, the humans in Klara and the Sun don’t even question that aspect of AFs. It’s more of a biological snobbery and that the AFs are short lived like Blade Runner replicants, and replaced by newer models.

Re: Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

#28

Post by goatlover »

sayonaraman wrote: post #7

I think "consciousness" is such a fuzzy term that talking about is at best premature when we are still trying to understand more fundamental things which underlie cognition, such as how human (or mice) memory works, or how the "cognitive maps" which drive spatial navigation generalize to navigation in abstract "concept spaces", how these "concepts" are represented, or how networks of neurons communicate and synchroni…

How about consciousness is color, sound, taste, smell, tactile and other bodily sensations in perception, dreams, memories, imagination, hallucinations and other mental states. Pain isn’t a fuzzy concept. You are well acquainted with what pain feels like for you.

Re: Anil Seth Finds Consciousness in Life’s Push Against Entropy

#29

Post by meowkit »

systemsignal wrote: post #17
monkeycantype wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means that ordered systems must create disorder in order to maintain their own order, and the place where you find the greatest order to disorder is in other actively ordered systems. I blame entropy for the existence of evil, if there is a sentient omniscient creator, there better be a good reason for it, and if the reason turns out to be that entropy is the ongoing cost of His omniscient observation of every…

But life probably wouldn’t exist if entropy wasn’t increasing Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe

> Life exists because it increases the entropy in the universe

This is an concise idea I sit on quite often.

Is this a commonly known idea? Among scientists/engineers/philosopher types? Would appreciate other thoughts.

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