Hate is hate and should not be tolerated. My experience with that, often/most of the time, the one's who criticize others (no matter if it's a country, religion, human being, way of thinking, ... ) are not willing to take criticism of themselves at all. And that's the problem. Right now, you see it at best with the demonstrations against COVID measures. And most of the time, the ones organizing or participating in th…
Except said teacher was not promoting hate, just criticizing Zionist project, so you missed the point with your terminally online friend examples.
Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
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Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would it be common? Israel is a nation built upon stolen land and decades of oppression of the Palestinian people. A modern day apartheid state with a strong and worldwide lobby apparatus. Labeling any criticism of the state as antisemitic is weak and dishonest.
I think rhetoric like yours is problematic. It doesn't help the Palestinian people. The way to help them isn't to cast blame on one side or the other. There's plenty of blame to go around. The way to move forward is to help moderates on both side reduce the toxic nature of discussion here. In that spirit let's start with the thing I agree with here. I actually agree that people shouldn't jump on the "antisemitic" lab…
What you’re saying is “we stole a good chunk of your land, offered to partial use of some of it back, and you’re an ungrateful crybaby.”
Let’s see how that works when someone does that to you. Oh and let’s not forget how Palestinian organizations are terrorists while the Israelis are police and soldiers defending their country.
“Sucks for both sides” - riiiight, when casualties are 10:1, resources are even more lopsided, the victor rolls out the good-old “both sides”.
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except said teacher was not promoting hate, just criticizing Zionist project, so you missed the point with your terminally online friend examples.
I do not agree, I missed the point. As you said, the Zionists project.. you, too, plant a seed of hate here. Everything starts with the words chosen. Especially if it's a teacher telling the students bad things about the Zionist.. the blacks, the yellows, the whatevers. They go home and remember what they learned from the teacher: zionist are bad. In fact, alone saying zionists is a sign, that you have some ressentim…
KEEP YOUR POINTS! I DONT CARE XDDDD New Account is made faster than you click. Angry white men who can't stand nothing
HATE IS EVERYWHERE! I think it's possible to see, who does downvote - the ones can see it, should do the same with the trumpists. Better world will be the loan.
hide your kids, hide your wife - the downvoters are here, but clicking in the background.
Bye, enjoy the feeling xD
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think rhetoric like yours is problematic. It doesn't help the Palestinian people. The way to help them isn't to cast blame on one side or the other. There's plenty of blame to go around. The way to move forward is to help moderates on both side reduce the toxic nature of discussion here. In that spirit let's start with the thing I agree with here. I actually agree that people shouldn't jump on the "antisemitic" lab…
I like your approach of balance before judgment. I'd like to pick a bit at your individual arguments I think talking about "theft" of land is always going to be tricky. Someone else goes back further. Abraham wasn't born in Jerusalem. Nor is it productive - who "owns" Alsace and Lorraine? What about Northern Ireland? Land in the Americas - European (mostly) immigrants, or Native Americans? So I would leave those bits…
This is your interpretation. The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled; to me the Palestinians clearly declined the 1947 partition plan (and before that the Peel Plan proposal in 37) and then the 90-00s Oslo and Camp David initiatives. They are making it quite clear the "right of return" is part of their identity by now, not something they are willing to give up. So it's important to ask what are we arguing over here - the 67 border occupation or the whole of the land?
> but to claim that Israel's international influence is only as big as its own voice is just as crazy
Israel indeed has a bigger influence than it's population size, but so do the Palestinians actually; every European, most Indians and Chinese, every Americans - everyone knows who the Palestinians are. But the fact is there have been countless genocides and dislocations much much worse than anything that happened during the Arab-Israeli conflict that most people know almost zero about. And let's not forget 3rd generation Palestinian are still counted as refugees which is unprecedented. I am not saying all of this is a result of the "Palestinian Lobby" but clearly they are getting way more attention than other stateless people (heard of the Kurds much lately?). Also saying stuff like the Jewish Lobby or Israeli Lobby reminds Jews of stuff that people said about them (and still say about them to this day actually) which is truly horrible; is that so hard to grasp? You can try showing more sensitivity and at least be careful in how you phrase your arguments.
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
though it's not helped by actual antisemites hiding their antisemitic speech as criticizing Israel
This logic does the antisemites a favor, frankly. It allows them to pull all criticism of Israel under their ideological umbrella so anyone with legitimate objections to that nation's leadership has no choice but to ally with the antisemites because you've pushed them out of all reasonable spaces.
Jeez no choice but to join the antisemites, ok man...
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like your approach of balance before judgment. I'd like to pick a bit at your individual arguments I think talking about "theft" of land is always going to be tricky. Someone else goes back further. Abraham wasn't born in Jerusalem. Nor is it productive - who "owns" Alsace and Lorraine? What about Northern Ireland? Land in the Americas - European (mostly) immigrants, or Native Americans? So I would leave those bits…
> Israel created the environment in which Palestinians feel they have no other options than destructive and cruel terrorism This is your interpretation. The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled; to me the Palestinians clearly declined the 1947 partition plan (and before that the Peel Plan proposal in 37) and then the 90-00s Oslo and Camp David initiatives. They are mak…
I'm not claiming it is. But Israel cannot turn around and say "none of this is our fault" with an innocent face. We're more talking about balance of "guilt". I wouldn't even necessarily say that Israel is more guilty than Palestine (if such comparisons even make sense, and human suffering can be reduced to a ratio). But Israel is a free, democratic, developed country. It has one of the highest ratios of university-educated people. I think the bar for acceptable behaviour is higher than for a haggard group of people living in abject poverty.
> Israel indeed has a bigger influence than it's population size, but so do the Palestinians actually
Palestine certainly gets publicity, but power doesn't seem to follow. I'm not criticising Israel for having an out-sized influence, but it's not in any way comparable to that of Palestine.
Please note I never said "Jewish lobby" or anything of the sort.
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Israel created the environment in which Palestinians feel they have no other options than destructive and cruel terrorism This is your interpretation. The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled; to me the Palestinians clearly declined the 1947 partition plan (and before that the Peel Plan proposal in 37) and then the 90-00s Oslo and Camp David initiatives. They are mak…
> The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled I'm not claiming it is. But Israel cannot turn around and say "none of this is our fault" with an innocent face. We're more talking about balance of "guilt". I wouldn't even necessarily say that Israel is more guilty than Palestine (if such comparisons even make sense, and human suffering can be reduced to a ratio). But Israel…
Indeed, Israel is extremely effective. Especially in 1948. I find that there is a general lack of awareness of the history of Palestine and the indigenous people that lived there (and still live there) here in the US. The average American (in the US) is not aware that over 750,000 people were forced to leave their land in 1948.
My parents were among them. They were forced to leave with my 1 year old sister. Ask any older Palestinian. No one chose to leave in 1948. There was a clear understanding that the Haganah would kill them if they stayed.
Call it what you will but this is universally recognized as ethnic cleansing and dispossession of land and homes. It's simply settler colonialism (the number of settlements continue to grow every year).
This was well documented by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe (The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine) among others. Most people simply hear news about violence, rockets, suicide bombers, etc. and do not understand the context. It's as if the Palestinians did not exist and the ethnic cleansing did not occur. There were over 500 small villages cleansed of inhabitants (see All That Remains by Walid Khalidi) and bulldozed over. Many now have settlers living nearby.
This is just history, not antisemitism.
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The "who started" it or who keeps the terrible dynamic going argument is far from settled I'm not claiming it is. But Israel cannot turn around and say "none of this is our fault" with an innocent face. We're more talking about balance of "guilt". I wouldn't even necessarily say that Israel is more guilty than Palestine (if such comparisons even make sense, and human suffering can be reduced to a ratio). But Israel…
> EDIT: it struck me after writing all this. Perhaps this is the core of the contention: Israel is just so damn effective at everything it does. Indeed, Israel is extremely effective. Especially in 1948. I find that there is a general lack of awareness of the history of Palestine and the indigenous people that lived there (and still live there) here in the US. The average American (in the US) is not aware that over 7…
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
> EDIT: it struck me after writing all this. Perhaps this is the core of the contention: Israel is just so damn effective at everything it does. Indeed, Israel is extremely effective. Especially in 1948. I find that there is a general lack of awareness of the history of Palestine and the indigenous people that lived there (and still live there) here in the US. The average American (in the US) is not aware that over 7…
It was a bad civil war. Just like your parents felt they were risking death, the Jews felt the same. The Jews had a good reason to feel that, its not far fetched they were facing massacres if they lost. And expulsion for sure. Some Arab leaders made no effort to hide their wishes to eliminate the Jewish state. It became a bad zero sum game. Ilan Pappe is a known anti Zionis, which is fine, but I can cherry pick Histo…
The massacres happened before the ethnic cleaning. In fact, they were used in the terror tactics used by the Hagana (as well as the Irgun and Stern Gang). Palestinians made up the majority of between eighty and ninety per cent of the total population in the 1920s.
When the Zionist movement started its ethnic cleansing operations in Palestine, in early December 1947, the country had a 'mixed' population of Palestinians and Jews. The indigenous Palestinians made up the two-third majority, down from ninety per cent at the start of the Mandate. One third were Jewish newcomers, i.e., Zionist settlers and refugees from war torn Europe, most of whom had arrived in Palestine since the 1920s. There was no civil war.
From the morning after the UN Partition Resolution was adopted, the 75,000 Palestinians in the city were subjected to a campaign of terror jointly instigated by the Irgun and the Hagana. As they had only arrived in recent decades, the Jewish settlers had built their houses higher up the mountain. Thus, they lived topographically above the Arab neighborhoods and could easily shell and snipe at them. They had started doing this frequently since early December.
My parents told me about other methods of intimidation as well: the Jewish troops rolled barrels full of explosives, and huge steel balls, down into the Arab residential areas, and poured oil mixed with fuel down the roads, which they then ignited.
The moment panicked Palestinian residents came running out of their homes to try to extinguish these rivers of fire, they were sprayed by machine-gun fire. In areas where the two communities still interacted, the Hagana brought cars to Palestinian garages to be repaired, loaded with explosives and detonating devices, and so wreaked death and chaos.
The idea that this was a civil war is laughable.
A range of strategies was used by the Jewish forces to terrorize and demoralize the Arab population in a deliberate attempt to provoke a mass exodus. Radio broadcasts in Arabic warned of traitors in the Arabs' midst, describing the Palestinians as having been deserted by their leaders, and accusing Arab militias of committing crimes against Arab civilians. They also spread fears of disease.
They also talked about the use of loudspeaker trucks. These would be used in the villages and towns to urge the Palestinians to flee before they were all killed, to warn that the Jews were using poison gas and atomic weapons, or to play recorded 'horror sounds' the wail of sirens, and the clang of fire-alarm bells.
Re: Israeli Diplomat Pressured UNC to Remove Teacher Who Criticized Israel
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
> EDIT: it struck me after writing all this. Perhaps this is the core of the contention: Israel is just so damn effective at everything it does. Indeed, Israel is extremely effective. Especially in 1948. I find that there is a general lack of awareness of the history of Palestine and the indigenous people that lived there (and still live there) here in the US. The average American (in the US) is not aware that over 7…
It was a bad civil war. Just like your parents felt they were risking death, the Jews felt the same. The Jews had a good reason to feel that, its not far fetched they were facing massacres if they lost. And expulsion for sure. Some Arab leaders made no effort to hide their wishes to eliminate the Jewish state. It became a bad zero sum game. Ilan Pappe is a known anti Zionis, which is fine, but I can cherry pick Histo…