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What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

drewdevault.com

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Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#21

Post by zchrykng »

cheesetable wrote: post #13
cortesoft wrote: post #8

I don't quite get this... it sounds like the author mostly has issues with the HTML part of the web, but much of this seems to focus on the HTTP part.... why not keep http and just make a replacement for HTML? Writing an http server is very simple, too

HTTP supports extensibility via HTTP headers and methods. Gemini to not be evolved: * HTTP is now for interactivity, complex clients, WebGL, Webassembly, ... * Gemini is for a segregated simpler web: links and text.

And Gemini being its own stand-alone thing that is different from everything is a serious hindrance for people to try it.

I've read Drew's stuff for a while and even wanted to test out Gemini out of interest, but it is really annoying/frustrating to use in my experience. And that is even before you get to the fact that there is nearly nothing there and/or it is nearly impossible. to find.

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#22

Post by MartijnBraam »

haolez wrote: post #6
MartijnBraam wrote: post #5

I'm a bit annoyed with the lack of _some_ inline image support. but making a browser for gemini is really really easy at least.

You could create a client that uses a non-standard markup and be able to render inline images just fine... oops! I think I just broke the web again :)

That would be against the spirit of the whole Gemini thing

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#23

Post by password4321 »

advisedwang wrote: post #12

I understand the desire to use trust-on-first-use to get rid of certificate authorities (some of the most dispicable and untrustworthy organizations around, and the largest security hole in TLS). However trust-on-first-use basically hands any long-term man-in-the-middle a complete victory. Authoritarian regimes are going to require ISPs to mitm every connection from first use, and hand over whatever data is desired t…

SSH works.

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#24

Post by jdonaldson »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #17
advisedwang wrote: post #12

I understand the desire to use trust-on-first-use to get rid of certificate authorities (some of the most dispicable and untrustworthy organizations around, and the largest security hole in TLS). However trust-on-first-use basically hands any long-term man-in-the-middle a complete victory. Authoritarian regimes are going to require ISPs to mitm every connection from first use, and hand over whatever data is desired t…

People, or businesses, that you know in real life could exchange certificate hashes in person. This is one of those things that usually garners the response "normal people would never do that", but honestly I'm surprised that no-one has even tried. Let's say that web browsers put a short hash of the certificate right in the URL bar. Amazon, for example, could print its hash on every shipping box. Banks could print th…

It’s a good form of secondary support for authentication, and is a reasonable foothold to start expanding circles of trust (I.e. second hand trust.. or “trust what my trusted source trusts”).

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#25

Post by BrightGlow »

zchrykng wrote: post #21
cheesetable wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTTP supports extensibility via HTTP headers and methods. Gemini to not be evolved: * HTTP is now for interactivity, complex clients, WebGL, Webassembly, ... * Gemini is for a segregated simpler web: links and text.

And Gemini being its own stand-alone thing that is different from everything is a serious hindrance for people to try it. I've read Drew's stuff for a while and even wanted to test out Gemini out of interest, but it is really annoying/frustrating to use in my experience. And that is even before you get to the fact that there is nearly nothing there and/or it is nearly impossible. to find.

According to some other blogs posted here (links are are elsewhere in this thread) the entire point of Gemini is that it's useless and annoying to use, so useless and annoying that it drives out any advertisers or businesses that would be potentially interested to use it.

I understand the designer's reasons to dislike online advertising but the train of logic here seems to be "internet businesses like to make things that are convenient, so let's make something which is intentionally not convenient at all" which in my opinion is a really convoluted and nonsensical way to reach the intended goal. This one is a swing and a miss for me. I hope the designer keeps trying and comes up with something that is actually useful eventually.

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#26

Post by SilverRed »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #17
advisedwang wrote: post #12

I understand the desire to use trust-on-first-use to get rid of certificate authorities (some of the most dispicable and untrustworthy organizations around, and the largest security hole in TLS). However trust-on-first-use basically hands any long-term man-in-the-middle a complete victory. Authoritarian regimes are going to require ISPs to mitm every connection from first use, and hand over whatever data is desired t…

People, or businesses, that you know in real life could exchange certificate hashes in person. This is one of those things that usually garners the response "normal people would never do that", but honestly I'm surprised that no-one has even tried. Let's say that web browsers put a short hash of the certificate right in the URL bar. Amazon, for example, could print its hash on every shipping box. Banks could print th…

> People, or businesses, that you know in real life could exchange certificate hashes in person.

This happens about as often as using PGP email. Approximately never.

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#27

Post by SilverRed »

password4321 wrote: post #23
advisedwang wrote: post #12

I understand the desire to use trust-on-first-use to get rid of certificate authorities (some of the most dispicable and untrustworthy organizations around, and the largest security hole in TLS). However trust-on-first-use basically hands any long-term man-in-the-middle a complete victory. Authoritarian regimes are going to require ISPs to mitm every connection from first use, and hand over whatever data is desired t…

SSH works.

There is no government effort to MitM SSH. And if there was, it would immediately crumble because not a single person manually verifies their ssh connection.

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#28

Post by LeoPanthera »

SilverRed wrote: post #26
LeoPanthera wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People, or businesses, that you know in real life could exchange certificate hashes in person. This is one of those things that usually garners the response "normal people would never do that", but honestly I'm surprised that no-one has even tried. Let's say that web browsers put a short hash of the certificate right in the URL bar. Amazon, for example, could print its hash on every shipping box. Banks could print th…

> People, or businesses, that you know in real life could exchange certificate hashes in person. This happens about as often as using PGP email. Approximately never.

This is the exact response that I tried to cover with the rest of my comment.

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#29

Post by toomuchtodo »

BrightGlow wrote: post #25
zchrykng wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Gemini being its own stand-alone thing that is different from everything is a serious hindrance for people to try it. I've read Drew's stuff for a while and even wanted to test out Gemini out of interest, but it is really annoying/frustrating to use in my experience. And that is even before you get to the fact that there is nearly nothing there and/or it is nearly impossible. to find.

According to some other blogs posted here (links are are elsewhere in this thread) the entire point of Gemini is that it's useless and annoying to use, so useless and annoying that it drives out any advertisers or businesses that would be potentially interested to use it. I understand the designer's reasons to dislike online advertising but the train of logic here seems to be "internet businesses like to make things…

I think useless and annoying are the wrong words here. It’s elegant in that efforts to extend it beyond its purpose are self defeating. It’s a Chinese finger trap for those who would attempt to embrace and extend for adtech and corp subversion.

I love it.

Re: What is this Gemini thing, and why am I excited about it? (2020)

#30

Post by SilverRed »

haolez wrote: post #6
MartijnBraam wrote: post #5

I'm a bit annoyed with the lack of _some_ inline image support. but making a browser for gemini is really really easy at least.

You could create a client that uses a non-standard markup and be able to render inline images just fine... oops! I think I just broke the web again :)

Just put them in markdown and have compatible clients inline render an image and non compatible clients get a link.
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