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How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

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Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#21

Post by gameswithgo »

nradov wrote: post #20
diskzero wrote: post #19

I raced as a Category 1 USCF racer and worked on increasing a lot of thresholds as I climbed up the ranks. I would get my VO2 max tested every year and saw some improvements based on training, but I hit a limit. Other teammates also hit limits, but their initial test values were just higher than mine and I wasn't going to train myself into those higher levels. Improving my lactate threshold, losing as much weight not…

It's pretty obvious when you look at amateur endurance races that a lot of those age group guys are heavily geared. There's no testing out of competition at all, and hardly any in competition either.

How is it obvious when you look at them? I mean, it is obvious that people cheat, because people cheat everywhere, but what does looking at them have to do with anything?

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#22

Post by gameswithgo »

dsiegel2275 wrote: post #7
nradov wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VO2 Max isn't a measure of endurance. It's a measure of maximum aerobic output. Edit: Athletes with high endurance as measured by how much output they can sustain over longer periods will also tend to have high VO2 Max scores, but that's mostly a correlation thing and not a direct causal relationship. I'm not sure there's any point in comparing VO2 Max scores across sports. It's an interesting factoid but not really…

From Wikipedia: "The measurement of V̇O2 max in the laboratory provides a quantitative value of endurance fitness for comparison of individual training effects and between people in endurance training. Maximal oxygen consumption reflects cardiorespiratory fitness and endurance capacity in exercise performance. Elite athletes, such as competitive distance runners, racing cyclists or Olympic cross-country skiers, can a…

Wikipedia's entry is overly simplistic. It is true that many people use VO2 in this way, but many of us feel it is silly. Some people are able to get more power to their legs at a given metabolic consumption, for instance. Two athletes may run the same time because one is more efficient with a lower VO2 Max, and the other has a higher VO2 Max but is less efficient. Interestingly no elite athlete has both things maxed out, perhaps because it is impossible, they are at odds with each other.

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#23

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

diskzero wrote: post #19

I raced as a Category 1 USCF racer and worked on increasing a lot of thresholds as I climbed up the ranks. I would get my VO2 max tested every year and saw some improvements based on training, but I hit a limit. Other teammates also hit limits, but their initial test values were just higher than mine and I wasn't going to train myself into those higher levels. Improving my lactate threshold, losing as much weight not…

> The reality is that you can build upon your genetic platform, but you are going to get to level where you simply can't compete against someone who is doing everything you are doing, but just have better genetics.

This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally, even though there are some glaringly obvious examples, like height.

That said, I think most people can generally train themselves to compete at high levels, just not not elite levels. For example, you see a good variety of people competing on decent college teams in all sorts of sports. It's just at the elite college level and above that you see people's shapes become more uniform.

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#24

Post by rhizome »

nradov wrote: post #17
matsemann wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, many more metrics to look at as well. Like lactate threshold (often measured relative to pace in running, or wattage in cycling (FTP)). And while they correlate, even they cannot even predict performance. For instance I measured my ftp, did a training plan and measured again. No change, but still got better results on my rides. Real world cycling is "punchy" with accelerations and hills etc. So my steady state…

Yes VO2 Max tests for the same athlete will usually yield scores that differ by a few points for cycling versus running. I know at least one pro cycling team tried to identify potential new riders from outside the sport by recruiting athletes from other sports who had exceptionally high VO2 Max scores. Race results were disappointing.

I wanna say speed skating is the only dependably crossover sport so far? Not just from the Heidens 40 years ago, lots of other examples here: https://www.google.com/search?q=speed+skating+cycling

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#25

Post by typon »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #23
diskzero wrote: post #19

I raced as a Category 1 USCF racer and worked on increasing a lot of thresholds as I climbed up the ranks. I would get my VO2 max tested every year and saw some improvements based on training, but I hit a limit. Other teammates also hit limits, but their initial test values were just higher than mine and I wasn't going to train myself into those higher levels. Improving my lactate threshold, losing as much weight not…

> The reality is that you can build upon your genetic platform, but you are going to get to level where you simply can't compete against someone who is doing everything you are doing, but just have better genetics. This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally, even though there are some glaringly obvious examples, like height. That said, I think most people can generally train themselves to compete at high l…

It's also overstated, culturally, especially in online circles. Most people will never be elite in anything in their lives, so these genetic limits don't impact most people. They're sometimes used as a crutch to justify not working harder.

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#26

Post by elric »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #23
diskzero wrote: post #19

I raced as a Category 1 USCF racer and worked on increasing a lot of thresholds as I climbed up the ranks. I would get my VO2 max tested every year and saw some improvements based on training, but I hit a limit. Other teammates also hit limits, but their initial test values were just higher than mine and I wasn't going to train myself into those higher levels. Improving my lactate threshold, losing as much weight not…

> The reality is that you can build upon your genetic platform, but you are going to get to level where you simply can't compete against someone who is doing everything you are doing, but just have better genetics. This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally, even though there are some glaringly obvious examples, like height. That said, I think most people can generally train themselves to compete at high l…

> This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally

Is it? It seems pretty obvious. And unless you're aiming to be an elite in whatever field, it's pretty much irrelevant. Barring serious defects, most people can do reasonably well in most disciplines (physical & mental) if they apply themselves. Of course, if everyone were to apply themselves equally, the genetic lottery would still win out, but that's not something that seems to happen?

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#27

Post by albertgoeswoof »

diskzero wrote: post #19

I raced as a Category 1 USCF racer and worked on increasing a lot of thresholds as I climbed up the ranks. I would get my VO2 max tested every year and saw some improvements based on training, but I hit a limit. Other teammates also hit limits, but their initial test values were just higher than mine and I wasn't going to train myself into those higher levels. Improving my lactate threshold, losing as much weight not…

Does chess really require high max V02?

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#28

Post by throwaway675309 »

elric wrote: post #26
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that you can build upon your genetic platform, but you are going to get to level where you simply can't compete against someone who is doing everything you are doing, but just have better genetics. This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally, even though there are some glaringly obvious examples, like height. That said, I think most people can generally train themselves to compete at high l…

> This is the hardest thing for us to admit, culturally Is it? It seems pretty obvious. And unless you're aiming to be an elite in whatever field, it's pretty much irrelevant. Barring serious defects, most people can do reasonably well in most disciplines (physical & mental) if they apply themselves. Of course, if everyone were to apply themselves equally, the genetic lottery would still win out, but that's not somet…

Sure but you could argue that the ability to "apply oneself" is fundamentally just another neurological character trait also rooted in one's physiological characteristics which stem from your environment (family, socioeconomic background, etc) and your genetics... neither of which you had any control over.

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#29

Post by gwern »

> In fact, when I model the average response to training across the entire group that I have VO2 and long-term training data for, I see an average shift from 54 to 67 ml/kg/min (a change of 24%) when a long-term, high-volume training plan is undertaken. > > Conversely, when a short-term, high-intensity training plan is undertaken, the model shows a maximal increase (in 4-6 weeks) to only 63 ml/kg/min (16%). > > So, while a 40% increase in VO2 max may not be considered “typical,” after my experience testing and observing athletes over the past 10+ years, I would have to consider a ~25% increase in VO2 max to be very typical given the right training over a sufficient period of time (the two items missing from those initial studies that suggested high genetic limitations).

Bait and switch. He starts out talking about averages over ordinary people suggesting 10-15% average improveability, and then presents a 25% estimate... from an extremely selected group of athletes after lots of attrition from those getting worse results (just what percent of the population even has VO2max numbers from a "long-term high-volume training plan"?). I would suggest that his end result strongly reinforces the original claim, rather than debunking it.

Re: How ‘Trainable’ Is VO2 Max Really? – A Case Study (2019)

#30

Post by bojo »

gameswithgo wrote: post #21
nradov wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty obvious when you look at amateur endurance races that a lot of those age group guys are heavily geared. There's no testing out of competition at all, and hardly any in competition either.

How is it obvious when you look at them? I mean, it is obvious that people cheat, because people cheat everywhere, but what does looking at them have to do with anything?

In bodybuilding heavily rounded shoulders is usually a sure sign of steroid use, as an example.
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