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Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

nationalpost.com

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Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#21

Post by ksaj »

BelenusMordred wrote: post #5
tsjq wrote: post #3

If vaccines are accessible to poor people (free or subsidised), how would vaccine passports hurt them?

This question is answered in the article: > Those who are fully vaccinated may be amongst those denied access if they do not have a printer or mobile device, or if they have forgotten their documentation at home. This will especially impact the poor, those who are homeless, those with developmental delays or those who suffer from cognitive impairment.

If you are going out somewhere that would need a covid passport, you're going to need your wallet one way or other. So I think forgetting the paper that should already be in your wallet to be one of the weakest arguments yet.

And if they can afford to go to a place that would need the passport (restaurants, movies, et al) then they probably can also afford one of the 10 cents per page print shops you find all over the place.

So that particular argument doesn't fly. At least "taking time off work" has some merit, but even then you can schedule around it. Over the course of almost a year so far, you must have at least some time in there to do it.

So far in my work place, not one person has had to take time off due to illness from the shot. Sure there are people who do get ill from it, but it's a lot more rare than people make it out to be. Even in my friendship circle, only one person almost had to take time off, but inevitably didn't need to. A sore arm is nothing unless you're a professional bowler or whatever.

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#22

Post by totony »

tablespoon wrote: post #13
totony wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does this reflect genuine concern for the poor, or is it a bad faith tactic to try to shoot down a policy for other Does it matter? >Especially with something like vaccine passports, any special issue the poor disproportionally experience is probably better dealt with through some kind of mitigation (e.g. make vaccines free, arrange free transportation or mobile clinics, mandate paid recovery days) than by scrapping…

>> Does this reflect genuine concern for the poor, or is it a bad faith tactic to try to shoot down a policy for other > Does it matter? Yes. For instance: does it matter if someone makes a convincing argument to lure you into a trap? Focusing on the argument in isolation can make you a fool. Motives matter. > Most policies aimed at helping poor people usually are usually either counterproductive or poorly done. Eh,…

The way to help poor people is the put the least roadblocks in their way. Government policies that assume that they work only aggravate the issue for the people for whom it doesn't work (creating outcasts).

EDIT: E.g. give everyone 500$ but hike up the price, what about the people that weren't eligible for some bureaucratic dumb reason?

A logical argument does not depend on the person that makes it (which is why its logical). Heuristically you can use the locutor to save you the trouble of analyzing it but you have to realize it's a heuristic and the argument might still be right.

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#23

Post by verdverm »

ksaj wrote: post #21
BelenusMordred wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This question is answered in the article: > Those who are fully vaccinated may be amongst those denied access if they do not have a printer or mobile device, or if they have forgotten their documentation at home. This will especially impact the poor, those who are homeless, those with developmental delays or those who suffer from cognitive impairment.

If you are going out somewhere that would need a covid passport, you're going to need your wallet one way or other. So I think forgetting the paper that should already be in your wallet to be one of the weakest arguments yet. And if they can afford to go to a place that would need the passport (restaurants, movies, et al) then they probably can also afford one of the 10 cents per page print shops you find all over th…

What if we compare the arguments in this case with the arguments around voter ID laws?

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#24

Post by 908B64B197 »

bobthechef wrote: post #20
908B64B197 wrote: post #16

> 5. Why are people vaccine-hesitant? While it is easy to dismiss the unvaccinated as conspiracy theorists and selfish, this is overly simplistic and frankly inaccurate. The unvaccinated are disproportionately of lower socio-economic status, ethnic minorities and children. Many minority groups have legitimate reasons to distrust the medical establishment, based on a long and sordid history of racism and classism. Som…

While I don't subscribe to the idea that "disparity implies racism", this is most certainly a case where, if you accept that view, vaccine mandates must be interpreted as racist precisely because Black and Hispanics are disproportionately unvaccinated. And the points made in (5) stand regardless of whether you accept the disparity view. But this is hardly the main point. (6) is more relevant (and the second part of (…

> Medical ethics is being thrown out the door and those pushing for vaccine coercion seem completely unable or unwilling to accept that that's what they're in favor of. And practically speaking, coercion, given the sickening and duplicitous politicization of the vaccine, is only going to result in skepticism toward the vaccine, which it has.

Ethics has always been a joke. A set of vague guidelines that wouldn't pass the stricter bar of being tested in court. It's basically anyone with a sliver of power playing judge and legislator.

I had not even considered the racial aspect. But I wonder, would it help to have black and Hispanic doctors reaching out to their respective demographics and talking to them about the vaccine? A booth with an "Ask me Anything" and shots available right away for those who change their mind?

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#25

Post by tablespoon »

livueta wrote: post #18
tablespoon wrote: post #10

Does this reflect genuine concern for the poor, or is it a bad faith tactic to try to shoot down a policy for other (perhaps unstated) reasons or priorities? Because I've seen a lot of the latter lately. Especially with something like vaccine passports, any special issue the poor disproportionally experience is probably better dealt with through some kind of mitigation (e.g. make vaccines free, arrange free transport…

> mandate paid recovery days A big problem for this sort of intervention, and one of the reasons why covid is as socioeconomically predestined as it is, is that many of the sort of people a mandatory paid recovery day would benefit from are paid under-the-table or in other informal work arrangements. If your way of putting food on the table involves standing outside Home Depot until a crew needs you, a benefit admini…

> I generally agree with the thrust of your comment, but it's easy to underestimate the additional barriers faced by the poor.

Oh, I totally agree that more thought would need to be put into than my drive-by examples. I just object to the common attitude that some policy should be scrapped because of some marginal issue vs. modified to mitigate that issue. Policies need to be evaluated holistically, and if an issue causes one to be scrapped, it should probably be a fundamental one.

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#26

Post by tablespoon »

totony wrote: post #22
tablespoon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Does this reflect genuine concern for the poor, or is it a bad faith tactic to try to shoot down a policy for other > Does it matter? Yes. For instance: does it matter if someone makes a convincing argument to lure you into a trap? Focusing on the argument in isolation can make you a fool. Motives matter. > Most policies aimed at helping poor people usually are usually either counterproductive or poorly done. Eh,…

The way to help poor people is the put the least roadblocks in their way. Government policies that assume that they work only aggravate the issue for the people for whom it doesn't work (creating outcasts). EDIT: E.g. give everyone 500$ but hike up the price, what about the people that weren't eligible for some bureaucratic dumb reason? A logical argument does not depend on the person that makes it (which is why its…

> The way to help poor people is the put the least roadblocks in their way.

That's little more than ideology.

> Government policies that assume that they work only aggravate the issue for the people for whom it doesn't work (creating outcasts).

> EDIT: E.g. give everyone 500$ but hike up the price, what about the people that weren't eligible for some bureaucratic dumb reason?

You're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, perhaps as an excuse for an ideology that advocates inaction.

> A logical argument does not depend on the person that makes it (which is why its logical). Heuristically you can use the locutor to save you the trouble of analyzing it but you have to realize it's a heuristic and the argument might still be right.

Yes, in an ivory tower that's sufficient, but in the real world it isn't. For instance, you will never have all the information. If you try to act like a logical robot, you can be tricked by with a logical argument that passes all your checks but is contradicted by facts you don't know or aren't attending to.

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#27

Post by totony »

tablespoon wrote: post #26
totony wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way to help poor people is the put the least roadblocks in their way. Government policies that assume that they work only aggravate the issue for the people for whom it doesn't work (creating outcasts). EDIT: E.g. give everyone 500$ but hike up the price, what about the people that weren't eligible for some bureaucratic dumb reason? A logical argument does not depend on the person that makes it (which is why its…

> The way to help poor people is the put the least roadblocks in their way. That's little more than ideology. > Government policies that assume that they work only aggravate the issue for the people for whom it doesn't work (creating outcasts). > EDIT: E.g. give everyone 500$ but hike up the price, what about the people that weren't eligible for some bureaucratic dumb reason? You're letting the perfect be the enemy o…

>perhaps as an excuse for an ideology that advocates inaction.

You assume my motives a lot. I advocate positive action, aka give 500$ to everyone but don't hike up the price. Or in other words, mandate paid sick days whether or not there are passports (and don't use the fact that there are sick days to justify implementing them).

The passport is a disincentive to not getting the vaccine, how about we incentive people to get it instead?

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#28

Post by tablespoon »

totony wrote: post #27
tablespoon wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way to help poor people is the put the least roadblocks in their way. That's little more than ideology. > Government policies that assume that they work only aggravate the issue for the people for whom it doesn't work (creating outcasts). > EDIT: E.g. give everyone 500$ but hike up the price, what about the people that weren't eligible for some bureaucratic dumb reason? You're letting the perfect be the enemy o…

>perhaps as an excuse for an ideology that advocates inaction. You assume my motives a lot. I advocate positive action, aka give 500$ to everyone but don't hike up the price. Or in other words, mandate paid sick days whether or not there are passports (and don't use the fact that there are sick days to justify implementing them). The passport is a disincentive to not getting the vaccine, how about we incentive people…

> You assume my motives a lot.

No, I speculated. There's a difference.

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#29

Post by horsawlarway »

blain wrote: post #8
tsjq wrote: post #3

If vaccines are accessible to poor people (free or subsidised), how would vaccine passports hurt them?

If vaccines are accessible to poor people leading to more vacinnated populus, why are vaccine passports needed? I'm not anti-vax but I don't understand why people think vaccines are going to solve everything, isn't covid here to stay? why make it another control measure?

This is my general take.

The goalposts sure seem to be shifting around Covid. At first it was merely "Flatten the curve" and now we're talking about much larger societal policy decisions, with no clear objective or aim.

Frankly - If the US was a person, I'd say we're having a severe allergic reaction. The response is worse than the disease. On both sides of the political spectrum we're seeing a tendency towards authoritarian controls and in-group/out-group dynamics, and I have a sinking feeling it's not going to end well.

---

None of that means you personally shouldn't get vaccinated. I'd strongly suggest it, and wish we'd had a vaccine earlier - I lost both of my grandmothers to covid.

But we've clearly lost touch with how to actually talk with a person you don't agree with - and since neither side has any real discourse with the other, we're reverting to control measures that I don't think are good for democracy.

Re: Vaccine passports will hurt the poor and threaten medical ethics

#30

Post by winkeltripel »

verdverm wrote: post #23
ksaj wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are going out somewhere that would need a covid passport, you're going to need your wallet one way or other. So I think forgetting the paper that should already be in your wallet to be one of the weakest arguments yet. And if they can afford to go to a place that would need the passport (restaurants, movies, et al) then they probably can also afford one of the 10 cents per page print shops you find all over th…

What if we compare the arguments in this case with the arguments around voter ID laws?

That's a great idea. The arguments against both are nearly identical, from my perspective.

There's a big difference in these scenarios, in that the argument FOR vaccine passports is much stronger, in that the vaccines provide some level of herd immunity. There is no evidence that voter fraud is occurring at high rates in the US to have voter ID barriers (the alleged purpose, though not the true one).

Intent also matters. The intent of vaccine passports is to reinforce the importance of herd immunity, to emphasize the legitimacy of the vaccines, and to protect frontline workers. The real intent of Voter ID laws (and voter roll purging, etc) is to disenfranchise. The intent taints the process, even if some of the components are reasonable (more options for valid photo-ID, more rigorous proof-of-residence rules, and more careful record keeping, etc).

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