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New math book rescues landmark topology proof

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Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#21
post #11

Math is the most formal science there is. Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs for all publications, and instead rely on what essentially is a code review for a very large change request with extremely convoluted code to be vetted bug free by only a handful of experts? P.S. Reviews are still needed to check novelty etc.

Because programmatically checked proofs don't work the way you think they do.

And even programatically checked proofs are still programs. And programs still need code review.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#22
Makes you wonder what's the most impactful thing you could build given the possibility of seven years of isolation and single-minded focus.

Would be interesting to know, at which point did Freedman decide to commit full time to his research---based on what, an intuition? And how did he decide to stop at 7 years and not 4, 9 or 10?

This is advanced stuff for me but I'll still be getting a copy of _The Disc Embedding Theorem_ to support this kind of niche research. Findings like these could be stepping stones towards bigger discoveries in the future.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#23
post #3

I'd be interested in whether proofs like these will be formalized in proof assistants that can be checked with computer code, so that it removes doubt of error. It's something in math I'd like to see become more prevalent.

It's possible, but difficult. Proofs written by humans tend to not include a bunch of relevant details and assumptions. They consist of lines like "We have some property/object/logical statement X, then by theorem Y we have Z", but often don't state how exactly they are using theorem Y to get result Z. There's often some additional algebraic or logical manipulation, or some simplification of terms, or implicitly using some other theorem or lemma that seems obvious to the writer.

Getting a computer to automatically find proofs of statements is difficult (impossible in general), and I wouldn't be surprised if converting a standard human-written proof into a formal proof system is just as hard.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#24
post #11

Math is the most formal science there is. Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs for all publications, and instead rely on what essentially is a code review for a very large change request with extremely convoluted code to be vetted bug free by only a handful of experts? P.S. Reviews are still needed to check novelty etc.

Getting a proof, even in one that is amenable to computer verification into a form where you can actually verify it is a monumental task, like it can easily take multiple experts multiple years.

Adding to this problem the intersection of mathematicians who understand computer aided verification and who understand a particular piece of research mathematics is often empty, and even if there are a handful of people who could do the necessary work they're often busy doing more interesting stuff.

Finally I don't think a big proof that has been accepted by the community has ever been found to be false by programmatic methods. I think its unlikely that this will happen for a long time, for the simple reason that to feed a proof into a computer requires someone to dissect the proof to its logical bare bones in the first place, and the person doing the dissection is likely to notice any errors before they get round to feeding the problem into the computer.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#25
post #11

Math is the most formal science there is. Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs for all publications, and instead rely on what essentially is a code review for a very large change request with extremely convoluted code to be vetted bug free by only a handful of experts? P.S. Reviews are still needed to check novelty etc.

> Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs for all publications

Because mathematics has more or less worked fine for decades without it, and most mathematicians aren't programmers and aren't interested in it. Proofs are for understanding, not for technical correctness (though obviously the latter is very important). A good proof convinces someone that it's true; convincing a computer that it's true is probably tangentially useful, but not very interesting to most mathematicians. They mostly want to be expanding the frontiers of mathematical knowledge, not painstakingly encoding proofs that they already believe (and, crucially, that their peers also already believe) into a computer system.

That's not to say proof checkers aren't interesting in their own right, but there's lots of really quite good reasons why mathematics goes without them almost all of the time. Formal methods bring a lot to computing, where our programs fall apart constantly, but mathematical proofs almost always don't fall apart. And in computing, almost all programs don't have formal proofs of correctness! If any area needs them, it's in computing, not mathematics. You might as well ask why every compiler doesn't come with a proof of correctness: because it's already hard enough to build a compiler, let alone the monstrosity that would be a formal proof.

The added benefit to a computer-checked proof is usually small to nil, and it's a ton of work. Like, way more work than just writing the proof.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#26

So who gets credit for proving it? Freedman, the original author from 1981; or the authors of this book? If Freedman's proof has so many gaps, should it be considered more of a proof outline, or a motivation for believing a conjecture, and the current book be considered the actual proof? Or does Freedman get the glory? In that case, there's not much incentive for people to do what these book authors did. Which I supp…

Freedman gets the credit for the bits of the proof that are his, the authors of this book get the credits for the novel stuff they add.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#27
post #3

I'd be interested in whether proofs like these will be formalized in proof assistants that can be checked with computer code, so that it removes doubt of error. It's something in math I'd like to see become more prevalent.

Something at this level is still far away, but it should be possible in theory. Last time I checked, there was still a lot of work to be done with formalizing geometric objects in Lean (the only proof assistant I have experience with). We are more in the stage of formalizing proofs from undergraduate books, whereas the proof of the 4-dimensional Poincare conjecture is multiple orders of magnitude more difficult.

From my understanding and limited experience, formalizing complex objects is quite difficult. A long proof where the objects are integers or algebraic relations might be easier than even defining a manifold. For example, with Lean, it was a lot of work to even define a perfectoid space -- which, to be fair, is a complicated object -- much less, say anything interesting about it.

If someone has more experience with other proof assistants, I'd be interested to hear about how far away a proof like Freedman's would be. My understanding is that each one (coq, agda, lean, etc) has certain drawbacks or benefits and can describe some concepts more easily than others, but "high-level" proofs are few and far between for all. For example, Coq has a verification of Feit-Thompson Theorem which is really cool, but I don't think there are many complex objects in there. As far as I know, it's groups, linear algebra, generator and relation computations -- all of which are pretty well handled by computers. On the other hand, to even begin a verification of Fermat's Last Theorem, you would have to first build up the entire scaffolding of modern (well, second half of the 20th century at least) algebraic number theory, quite a feat in itself.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#28
post #3

I'd be interested in whether proofs like these will be formalized in proof assistants that can be checked with computer code, so that it removes doubt of error. It's something in math I'd like to see become more prevalent.

The problem is, once you have a proof that everyone agrees is correct, what's the incentive to painstakingly translate it into something a computer also agrees is correct?

Yes, you might turn up some "bugs" in the proof, but proof bugs can almost always be ironed out. It's a very rare proof that is accepted and then falls apart later. If proofs were as "buggy" as computer programs- falling apart all the time- then there'd be a much bigger appetite for proof checkers. But as it is, mathematical peer review seems to work awfully well.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#29
post #11

Math is the most formal science there is. Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs for all publications, and instead rely on what essentially is a code review for a very large change request with extremely convoluted code to be vetted bug free by only a handful of experts? P.S. Reviews are still needed to check novelty etc.

> Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs ... Because that would take 2+ orders of magnitude more work, and nobody has the time/attention budget for it. This is sort of like asking: why did you single person write this 10-page short story instead of making a Hollywood-style feature film?

Would it though? Are proof checkers much more complicated than LaTeX?

If mathematicians are in certain ways similar to developers, I'd expect them to hate fighting with the layout of their papers, and love fighting with a proof checker for the formulas.

Re: New math book rescues landmark topology proof

#30
post #11

Math is the most formal science there is. Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs for all publications, and instead rely on what essentially is a code review for a very large change request with extremely convoluted code to be vetted bug free by only a handful of experts? P.S. Reviews are still needed to check novelty etc.

> Why don't serious math journals require programmatically checked proofs for all publications Because mathematics has more or less worked fine for decades without it, and most mathematicians aren't programmers and aren't interested in it. Proofs are for understanding, not for technical correctness (though obviously the latter is very important). A good proof convinces someone that it's true; convincing a computer th…

> A good proof convinces someone that it's true; convincing a computer that it's true is probably tangentially useful, but not very interesting to most mathematicians. They mostly want to be expanding the frontiers of mathematical knowledge, not painstakingly encoding proofs that they already believe into a computer system.

I guess the question is which of "convincing a human" or "convincing a computer" is considered the higher bar.

In any case, uncovering "what you believe that isn't so" is pretty important.

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