Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam • Hacker News Board

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#21

Post by ugh » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:10 PM UTC

snoochybooch wrote: post #20

ugh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: http://www.minecraft.net/download.jsp Download away! Man, entitled gamers are the worst.

Nope. If I buy the game, and then download it a week or two later I do not necessarily get the correct version. Furthermore, any reasonable person expects that if you are truly only purchasing some specific version then you would be able to download it into the future. You can't have it both ways.

You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. If you want the version of the game when you buy it, it is clearly your own responsibility to download the game. There is no violation of the TOS, to claim otherwise is absurd to the highest degree.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#22

Post by snoochybooch » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:11 PM UTC

bradleyland wrote: post #9

snoochybooch wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I send you money to work on project A, and you invest that money on into some other project B while paying lip service to project A then yes, I would say you have a bit of an ethical problem. Notch's criticism is hypocritical, and invalid on the grounds that he doesn't have enough information to say that the project is a "scam".

You're framing the relationship between customer and game developer differently than I've ever seen it. When I give a developer money for a game, I'm not "sending him money to work on project A". I'm paying him for the game. In bold print right on the Minecraft purchase page: "Please note that when you buy the game, you're paying for the game as it is right now!" Anyone who buys Minecraft under the delusion that they…

This might be a tenable position, except according to this interpretation of the Terms of Purchase they have not fulfilled their end of the bargain, since they do not provide me with a link to download the version of the game that was released at the time of purchase. This is really just a clumsy attempt at removing liability, not a reflection of reasonable expectations. Notch actively cultivates the expectation of continued and active support.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#23

Post by icey » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:12 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #21

snoochybooch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. If I buy the game, and then download it a week or two later I do not necessarily get the correct version. Furthermore, any reasonable person expects that if you are truly only purchasing some specific version then you would be able to download it into the future. You can't have it both ways.

You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. If you want the version of the game when you buy it, it is clearly your own responsibility to download the game. There is no violation of the TOS, to claim otherwise is absurd to the highest degree.

The guy you're responding to clearly created a new account here just to troll.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#24

Post by snoochybooch » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:12 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #14

snoochybooch wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I send you money to work on project A, and you invest that money on into some other project B while paying lip service to project A then yes, I would say you have a bit of an ethical problem. Notch's criticism is hypocritical, and invalid on the grounds that he doesn't have enough information to say that the project is a "scam".

I guess it boils down to whether we think it's "lip service" to start work on a new concurrent project before the initial project is complete. As a freelancer, I work on many projects at once -- am I being unethical by dividing my day to several tasks in parallel instead of performing them completely serially on a first-come, first-served basis? I don't see that there's any neglect inherent in using some resources to…

"People who buy minecraft buy to play as it is, NOT to play at some hypothetical future state"

Evidence?

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#25

Post by Ronkdar » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:18 PM UTC

snoochybooch wrote: post #16

Ronkdar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was paying a subscription fee to play, I would agree with you. But I spent $15 a year and a half ago for the product /as it was/ and it was absolutely worth it. You are not entitled to updates, they're just nice to have. And I'm not paying for server support or anything, so I don't necessarily expect rapid bug/exploit fixes.

Notch made specific promises that have been broken. And as far as what I am "entitled to", Mojang are in violation of their own Terms of Service by not providing me with a download of the version as-is when I paid for it. So what am I entitled to for my $15? Look, I understand some people are happy to throw away $15 and have Mojang do whatever they want. I think they have an ethical problem when they make promises bu…

I regularly pay my ISP large amounts of money to treat me with contempt. Somebody I'm not paying can treat me however they like. They have /zero obligation/ to be nice to me after I purchase an "as is" product.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#26

Post by Ronkdar » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:20 PM UTC

snoochybooch wrote: post #24

cookiecaper wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it boils down to whether we think it's "lip service" to start work on a new concurrent project before the initial project is complete. As a freelancer, I work on many projects at once -- am I being unethical by dividing my day to several tasks in parallel instead of performing them completely serially on a first-come, first-served basis? I don't see that there's any neglect inherent in using some resources to…

"People who buy minecraft buy to play as it is, NOT to play at some hypothetical future state" Evidence?

http://www.minecraft.net/prepurchase.jsp <-- right there.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#27

Post by sukuriant » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:22 PM UTC

snoochybooch wrote: post #16

Ronkdar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was paying a subscription fee to play, I would agree with you. But I spent $15 a year and a half ago for the product /as it was/ and it was absolutely worth it. You are not entitled to updates, they're just nice to have. And I'm not paying for server support or anything, so I don't necessarily expect rapid bug/exploit fixes.

Notch made specific promises that have been broken. And as far as what I am "entitled to", Mojang are in violation of their own Terms of Service by not providing me with a download of the version as-is when I paid for it. So what am I entitled to for my $15? Look, I understand some people are happy to throw away $15 and have Mojang do whatever they want. I think they have an ethical problem when they make promises bu…

"by not providing me with a download of the version as-is when I paid for it."

... so you don't want automatic updates and game improvements, then?

And he's incrementally delivering on his product. He continues to work on it, adventure mode is on its way out. Rumor: he's also working on new worlds, like that sky mode thing. He does continue to work on it, he's not broken his promise. I don't understand what you're talking about.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#28

Post by masterzora » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:45 PM UTC

snoochybooch wrote: post #22

bradleyland wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're framing the relationship between customer and game developer differently than I've ever seen it. When I give a developer money for a game, I'm not "sending him money to work on project A". I'm paying him for the game. In bold print right on the Minecraft purchase page: "Please note that when you buy the game, you're paying for the game as it is right now!" Anyone who buys Minecraft under the delusion that they…

This might be a tenable position, except according to this interpretation of the Terms of Purchase they have not fulfilled their end of the bargain, since they do not provide me with a link to download the version of the game that was released at the time of purchase. This is really just a clumsy attempt at removing liability, not a reflection of reasonable expectations. Notch actively cultivates the expectation of c…

When you make your purchase you are given the ability to download the version of the game as is, fulfilling the contract. Until you point to something that specifically would force them to maintain the link beyond that your entire position is untenable. That they maintain a link to the most recent version in addition to having provided you with the promised version upon purchase is purely a bonus.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#29

Post by esrauch » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:49 PM UTC

Geee wrote: post #10

I think the unlimited detail refers to rendering speed, not memory requirements. The data has to be redundant to fit in memory. He also claims it runs on a laptop without GPU. So it can't be just octree or any other regular acceleration structure. So if it isn't scam, it's something new. From the author (old post on Beyond3D): "firstly the system isn’t ray tracing at all or anything like ray tracing. Ray tracing uses…

I'm fairly certain that "sorting to find the one atom for each pixel on the screen" is exactly the definition of raytracing.

Re: Notch on Euclideon: It's a scam

#30

Post by BoppreH » Tue, Aug 02, 2011, 10:50 PM UTC

kbutler wrote: post #13

snoochybooch wrote: post #2

If Notch wants to be picky about ethics, let's talk about spending money hiring for the development of a new game (Scrolls) before finishing a game players have essentially advanced him money to complete (Minecraft). Or about sitting on critical security holes for months. Euclideon may not deliver on its promises (it probably won't), but for all Notch knows they do have a novel technique and labeling it a "scam" is j…

"Please note that when you buy the game, you're paying for the game as it is right now! You will also get the full version of Minecraft when it is released. Read the copyright information for more information on your purchase." http://www.minecraft.net/prepurchase.jsp It sounds like you misunderstood what you were spending your money on.

The contents of that page were changed without notice some time ago. The part you quoted was included later:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090615065558/http://www.minecra...