The Case for a Shorter Workweek • Hacker News Board

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#21

Post by martinmakesgame » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:35 AM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #8

I've been working a 4-day work week for over a decade now. I took the pay cut myself. I pretty much agree with the article. Especially in knowledge-intense office jobs, people can't really be fully productive across the day or week. People have different energy cycles throughout the day, and we're biologically just not designed to focus this stretch of time. So a number of hours is "busy time", sitting out the hours.…

> We work longer, not shorter. We work as a couple, not as a single breadwinner. We have less job security than ever. The combined stress of a life long quest and grind for economic relevance is the greatest source of human suffering remaining.

I feel like a part of the issue is a belief that competition is necessary for an economy to function. Some people say to themselves, "I need to work longer because I need to be competitive against other people doing the same work".

Moving from a competitive mindset to a cooperative one would help everyone. What's the point of being in competition if anybody loses? We all win when we help each other win. Why can't economics function from a starting assumption of cooperation instead of competition? How about instead people just do what they need to for its own intrinsic value instead of maximising income.

I find that there is a wealth in life that is not dependent on economics at all. Relationships with others and a relationship with myself. In my experience people are generous by nature, with their time, company and help.

Competition is completely unnecessary and is a choice that people choose to believe in. It is possible to work from a mindset of just helping others instead.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#22

Post by foxpurple » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:35 AM UTC

plebianRube wrote: post #2

Soon after implementation, I feel that companies would like to reduce pay as well. Maybe not by 20%, but it's an easy way to increase profitability.

For me I don’t really care that much. I realised I earn far more than I spend and most of my spending is not essential anyway. I’ll take the pay cut and live a happier life rather than working every last bit of energy left and trying to recover with mindless consumerism on the weekend.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#23

Post by 5F36B5F62640 » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:36 AM UTC

I work as a programmer in a dying industry. Over the last several years we've cut hours instead of having layoffs. We are now down to a 3 day work week. Everyone left knows they should have left years ago but we are all curious to see how long the company can keep going.

Everybody knows how 5 day work weeks are. You get back to work Monday and it may take a little while to pick up where you left off Friday but surely by midday you are back in the groove.

Your two days off for the weekend seem like barely time to get your own stuff done.

When we went to 4 day weeks it was a great boon to my weekends. If I wanted I could take a day to completely goof off and unwind from my work week and still have two weekend days for my own projects.

Monday though took more effort to remember where I'd broken off on Thursday. It might take all day to get my mojo going especially if I had been working on something trick like hunting a difficult big.

At 3 day work weeks and 4 day weekends I've got more "me" days than "work" days. It no longer feels like work is the main thing I do and my personal projects have to be fitted in the cracks. Now my projects are the main things and work feels like the side project.

When I get in Monday I will have completely forgotten what I was working on Wednesday. I have to end Wednesday by writing a detailed note to my future Monday self explaining exactly what I was working on. If I don't write that note it might take until sometime mid Tuesday before I'm caught up to where I was last Wednesday and making progress.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#24

Post by actually_a_dog » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 12:56 AM UTC

foxpurple wrote: post #18

actually_a_dog wrote: post #3

A couple of random and semi-related thoughts: I'm not really good for more than 6 hours of any sort of challenging mental work in a day, anyway. I also don't think that "hours" are a particularly good thing to track for software engineers -- we have ticket tracking and project management software that track effort already. The bit about being rewarded with a Friday off reminded me of how I'd try to get my homework do…

The problem is in the real world it’s close to impossible to tell the difference between getting work done early and the task being easier than expected. Same the other way around. If you are constantly putting out more and better quality work than the average, the reward is you ask for more pay or you switch to a higher paying job.

> The problem is in the real world it’s close to impossible to tell the difference between getting work done early and the task being easier than expected. Same the other way around.

I don't see why that's a problem, provided there's not a lot of constant sandbagging when giving estimates.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#25

Post by yownie » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:02 AM UTC

As an Icelander who lives in Iceland I can only say that the international press has had field day misquoting and taking out of context the program experiment here. It doesn't seem to matter now anyway as it's just used as a skeleton for other articles like this.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#26

Post by actually_a_dog » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:05 AM UTC

foolinaround wrote: post #20

rubicon33 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in the lucky position to work in a fully output-based role, based on sprints and clear deliverables. One week before the new sprint, we agree in detail what gets delivered. And then I deliver, consistently and reliably. I take this extreme reliability very serious, as I don't want to be seen as some part-time worker or somebody not doing their part Is the nature of your work very predictable, or, do you tend to…

In an earlier workplace, where my team was delivering all the tasks agreed to sprint after sprint, my manager told me that i was less demanding on my team, since they seem to easily finish what they agreed on! Make more bricks!! Soon, the games started on inflating story points, etc, and i soon made my way out of there...

> Make more bricks!!

> Soon, the games started on inflating story points, etc, and i soon made my way out of there...

Are you saying your response to your manager's observation was to crack the metaphorical whip and demand more from them? And that they adjusted their estimates upward in response?

Do you think they were actually at their maximum sustainable velocity before?

Would you have done it differently if you could go back in time and change what you did?

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#27

Post by gjffkk » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

I feel like this would only work for the 9-5 crew.

Realistically, if you’re a salaried employee working from home at a fortune 1000 or startup in the US, you’re basically always kind of working; nights and weekends, when there’s important stuff happening or you don’t have plans.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#28

Post by twobitshifter » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

Another option is a 4 on 2 off schedule if you can swing it.

This gives you a 239-240 working days per year. This is only 15 fewer days than a standard year, which can easily be made up by working 2 hours more per 4 days or 8.5 hours per day.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#29

Post by foolinaround » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

actually_a_dog wrote: post #26

foolinaround wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an earlier workplace, where my team was delivering all the tasks agreed to sprint after sprint, my manager told me that i was less demanding on my team, since they seem to easily finish what they agreed on! Make more bricks!! Soon, the games started on inflating story points, etc, and i soon made my way out of there...

> Make more bricks!! > Soon, the games started on inflating story points, etc, and i soon made my way out of there... Are you saying your response to your manager's observation was to crack the metaphorical whip and demand more from them? And that they adjusted their estimates upward in response? Do you think they were actually at their maximum sustainable velocity before? Would you have done it differently if you co…

i never bought in to this, since the team was working hard, and had to support the odd production issues as well.

However, the team did inflate the points for some stories, and then moved some stories across sprints from time to time.

i hated the slavedriver attitude, and it was one of the reasons I left.

Re: The Case for a Shorter Workweek

#30

Post by PenguinCoder » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 1:17 AM UTC

willcipriano wrote: post #12

fleddr wrote: post #8

I've been working a 4-day work week for over a decade now. I took the pay cut myself. I pretty much agree with the article. Especially in knowledge-intense office jobs, people can't really be fully productive across the day or week. People have different energy cycles throughout the day, and we're biologically just not designed to focus this stretch of time. So a number of hours is "busy time", sitting out the hours.…

> You still need to output the same productivity as somebody working 5 days. > barely anybody can even tell that I'm not in on Fridays. > I took the pay cut myself. Why take a pay cut here? Why is your effort worth less then the guy who uses his time less efficiently?

Especially if the company is expecting the same output/productivity as the 5 day a week people!