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Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

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Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#21

Post by heavyset_go »

echelon wrote: post #3

Don't just sign this. Call or email your representatives and ask them to support the Open App Markets Act and the Digital Fair Repair Act . https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representati... https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm edit: Wow, two popular Apple stories removed from the HN front page today. How many more go down like this?

Message dang and see if they were erroneously flagged by users. I think he said something about stories getting removed from the frontpage based on how many users flag them.

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#22

Post by heavyset_go »

skygazer wrote: post #20
aaomidi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing this remotely, and the thing is its BETTER to do it remotely than on device. The issue here with Apple is that they want to move this type of scanning on-device. No one has really complained about them scanning for CSAM on iCloud. The data is NOT e2ee in iCloud, there is literally no reason for them to move this scanning to on-device.

It does seem overwhelmingly likely to me that Apple intended to clear a path to E2EE of iCloud Photos with this, however, I'm utterly stumped why they haven't made any announcement nor even suggested it as a motivation. It is clearly their best possible rationale for moving the perceptual hashing from cloud to device, and many people would say, "oh, well, I guess I understand that trade off, then." But without that a…

> It does seem overwhelmingly likely to me that Apple intended to clear a path to E2EE

Some people say this, but the government doesn't just care about CSAM. They care about terrorism, human and drug trafficking, organized crime, gangs, fraud etc.

Unless Apple plans on expanding their system to detect those other things as well, I don't think CSAM detection alone is indicative of a clear path to E2EE. In fact, I see no evidence at all that indicates their intention of this project is to implement E2EE.

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#23

Post by falcolas »

skygazer wrote: post #20
aaomidi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are doing this remotely, and the thing is its BETTER to do it remotely than on device. The issue here with Apple is that they want to move this type of scanning on-device. No one has really complained about them scanning for CSAM on iCloud. The data is NOT e2ee in iCloud, there is literally no reason for them to move this scanning to on-device.

It does seem overwhelmingly likely to me that Apple intended to clear a path to E2EE of iCloud Photos with this, however, I'm utterly stumped why they haven't made any announcement nor even suggested it as a motivation. It is clearly their best possible rationale for moving the perceptual hashing from cloud to device, and many people would say, "oh, well, I guess I understand that trade off, then." But without that a…

> Apple intended to clear a path to E2EE of iCloud Photos with this

Here’s one problem with that idea: They would have to support scanning on the device for everything they are able to scan in the cloud today, in every country. Without changes, their current scanner would not do the trick (unless, of course, they’re lying about how it works).

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#24

Post by istingray »

politelemon wrote: post #18

This is not a useful petition. Regardless of the outcome, their nature has been shown once again, but this time it is in a more egregious and nefarious manner, and a lot more people are taking notice. The reason it's not useful is that it temporarily hides away a side, or an image, that users aren't comfortable with. It will not change intentions and facts, it only exists so that people with brand loyalty and a brand…

Good, put this in an email and send to tcook@apple.com. If you don't like EFF's stance on this that's fine, I wrote my own email to Tim instead.

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#25

Post by robertoandred »

aborsy wrote: post #16
zepto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple can search for arbitrary information on user’s property. This is simply false, if you are referring to the CSAM mechanism.

Which part is false? They state they begin with image data (with a data set they control). In the future, they “can” evolve the scope to anything. Read the EFF articles. They are well written.

The EFF’s articles were full of lies and false assumptions.

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#26

Post by zepto »

aborsy wrote: post #16
zepto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple can search for arbitrary information on user’s property. This is simply false, if you are referring to the CSAM mechanism.

Which part is false? They state they begin with image data (with a data set they control). In the future, they “can” evolve the scope to anything. Read the EFF articles. They are well written.

> In the future, they “can” evolve the scope to anything.

So, they can’t now then.

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#27

Post by zepto »

josephcsible wrote: post #15
zepto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple can search for arbitrary information on user’s property. This is simply false, if you are referring to the CSAM mechanism.

What do you think is stopping Apple from including a hash of Tank Man along with all of the real CSAM hashes?

The fact you can only use ‘tank man’ as the example proves that they can’t search for arbitrary information.

It’s a meaningless example in any case given that Chinese authorities have no problem forcing people to install spyware directly on their devices.

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#29

Post by tzs »

politelemon wrote: post #18

This is not a useful petition. Regardless of the outcome, their nature has been shown once again, but this time it is in a more egregious and nefarious manner, and a lot more people are taking notice. The reason it's not useful is that it temporarily hides away a side, or an image, that users aren't comfortable with. It will not change intentions and facts, it only exists so that people with brand loyalty and a brand…

It's also not a useful petition because it is about both the scanning of all iCloud uploads feature and the new parental control feature that scans incoming images on children's phones.

The parental control feature requires explicit opt in when the parent's set up the child's phone. When it finds a questionable image it warns the child and asks if they want to reject it or accept it.

If the child is at least 13 and accepts the image, that is the end of it. Their parents are not notified.

If the child is under 13 they are asked again if they really want to accept it, and told that if they do their parents will be notified.

Only if the child then goes ahead and accepts the images do the parents get notified.

Most objections to these features I've seen other than from the EFF are just on the upload scanning. I suspect that there are plenty of people who would sign a petition on that, but that are OK with the parental controls.

It would be much more useful to have separate petitions for the two features.

Re: Tell Apple: Don’t Scan Our Phones

#30

Post by r00fus »

echelon wrote: post #3

Don't just sign this. Call or email your representatives and ask them to support the Open App Markets Act and the Digital Fair Repair Act . https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representati... https://www.senate.gov/senators/senators-contact.htm edit: Wow, two popular Apple stories removed from the HN front page today. How many more go down like this?

Those do nothing to help this issue.
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