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How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

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Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#21

Post by pew_pew_ »

Well, the article misses just a couple of things: 1) First and foremost, the famine was USSR-wide and hit both RSFSR and Kazakhstan, the latter one had even worse population consequences. 2) When it became apparent that there is not enough grain, USSR started rapidly importing it and giving out - still in a brutal city-favouring way, but it was not a deliberate politics of starvation. 3) The whole story started due to western nations banning gold trade with the USSR, forcing it to gamble on grain yields to buy equipment for industrialisation

The famine still was a terrible mistake, but trying to paint it as deliberate killing is unfair -- it is more akin to great depression (typical forced move to the city and machine agriculture). Except it didn't last 10 years and they tried to fix it as soon as it happened.

Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#22

Post by emergie »

pew_pew_ wrote: post #21

Well, the article misses just a couple of things: 1) First and foremost, the famine was USSR-wide and hit both RSFSR and Kazakhstan, the latter one had even worse population consequences. 2) When it became apparent that there is not enough grain, USSR started rapidly importing it and giving out - still in a brutal city-favouring way, but it was not a deliberate politics of starvation. 3) The whole story started due t…

Well, the article also fails to mention that the Soviet Union exported food products during this famine. People starved because of confiscation of goods and mandatory food contingents.

Ukraine has one of the most fertile soil on the planet and has had developed agrarian culture. Creating a famine in such place requires malice.

Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#23

Post by Arrath »

MaxDPS wrote: post #19

If anyone is interested in learning more about this, I’d recommend the book “The Bloodlands”. It talks about the atrocities Stalin and Hitler did leading up to WW2. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6572270-bloodlands

Seconded. This is a great, if very depressing, book.

Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#24

Post by daoman »

pew_pew_ wrote: post #21

Well, the article misses just a couple of things: 1) First and foremost, the famine was USSR-wide and hit both RSFSR and Kazakhstan, the latter one had even worse population consequences. 2) When it became apparent that there is not enough grain, USSR started rapidly importing it and giving out - still in a brutal city-favouring way, but it was not a deliberate politics of starvation. 3) The whole story started due t…

Those points are not true 1. People in Ukraine were literally eating each other. Where in Russia was it happening? In Moscow? No. St Petersburg? No. Novgorod? No. 2. Not a starvation politic you say? Everyone knew about the famine, soldiers were expropriating grain from weak and hungry people, the communists saw it with their own eyes, and still proceeded. It was an explicit punishment for not fully supporting Soviet Government. 3. The grain was in fact exported during the famine, this fact is undisputable as there are records in the countries that were buying that grain. There are no records of BUYING grain by the USSR at that period.

And the last point you make is completely ridiculous: "well, it wasn't happening for 10 years, so it's just an innocent mistake" - it was happening for 2 years and 3.5 million people died in Ukraine. How about that for a mistake? If 1000 died and they stopped it, I would agree. Or maybe 10000. Ok, 100,000 hungry deaths you cannot ignore, but 3.5 million people?! It was intentional and it was a genocide of Ukrainians.

Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#25

Post by daoman »

TKWasRight wrote: post #13

I had no idea the forced Ukrainian Famines killed more than the holocaust...

Exactly. Communists killed even more people than Nazis, but in modern Russia they still have a Communist Party. It's not the ruling party, more like a fringe party, but nevertheless it's supported by many Russians

Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#26

Post by lukami »

antifa wrote: post #16
mrDmrTmrJ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a long and terrible tradition of western media refusing to expose Stalin's crimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty

I'm not sure what you mean by this, the crimes of Stalin are probably over exposed in Western media, if anything. There's no shortage of people eager to inform you that Stalin killed people, even if it's completely off topic!

Would you say the same thing about the crimes of Hitler?

Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#28

Post by pew_pew_ »

daoman wrote: post #24
pew_pew_ wrote: post #21

Well, the article misses just a couple of things: 1) First and foremost, the famine was USSR-wide and hit both RSFSR and Kazakhstan, the latter one had even worse population consequences. 2) When it became apparent that there is not enough grain, USSR started rapidly importing it and giving out - still in a brutal city-favouring way, but it was not a deliberate politics of starvation. 3) The whole story started due t…

Those points are not true 1. People in Ukraine were literally eating each other. Where in Russia was it happening? In Moscow? No. St Petersburg? No. Novgorod? No. 2. Not a starvation politic you say? Everyone knew about the famine, soldiers were expropriating grain from weak and hungry people, the communists saw it with their own eyes, and still proceeded. It was an explicit punishment for not fully supporting Soviet…

1. Volga? 2. I can agree with that, which I pointed out by mentioning that cities (with industrial population) were favored. 3. It is true, but the exports were curtailed in an attempt to combat the famine. I made the mistake before freshening up on soviet foreign trade, which basically consisted of grain only. I can see why they exported it even during the famine -- without selling grain there would be no fuel, no spare parts, the whole economy would halt.

I didn't say that was an 'innocent mistake' -- mistakes can still be brutal and criminal, yet if it was a deliberate genocide of Ukrainians, tell me, why did 2 to 3 millions of Russians and the same amount of Kasakhs died?

And the point about comparison with the great depression is not about time, but about damage control -- in the case of great depression they did none, due to ideological reasons, while in the soviet case they did, although limited it.

It was more of a bureaucracy/management problem combined with Stalin's disregard of life: administration was trying to get the ridicilous KPIs (while manufacturing illicit statistics) at the cost of the people at hand.

Re: How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine

#29

Post by alentist »

antifa wrote: post #16
mrDmrTmrJ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a long and terrible tradition of western media refusing to expose Stalin's crimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty

I'm not sure what you mean by this, the crimes of Stalin are probably over exposed in Western media, if anything. There's no shortage of people eager to inform you that Stalin killed people, even if it's completely off topic!

Why do you think they are "over exposed"? What do you claim is the "correct" level of exposure?
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