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Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

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21–30 of 137 posts

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#21

As someone with a beard, I just cant imagine shaving every morning. Seems like a huge pain in the ass and waste of time. You do you if thats your thing though.

In the days before the safety razor, not that many men shaved every day. Supposedly it was WW I that created the daily shaving habit in the US. Before that, it was common to be shaved by the barber.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#22
post #17
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just perception - there was a very real conflict in the 19th century between traditional Russian values and western ideas such as nihilism and socialism. Dostoevsky was such an idealist in his youth, then turning his back on those movements after being imprisoned in hard labor camp. In his book Demons, he very much groks the dangers of these western ideas, which led to the disastrous 70 year reign of the Bolshevi…

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

You must ask yourself a question here: did they accomplish all of that because of the socialism, or despite it?

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#23

The article states that this was part of an effort to reorient the country's culture. That might seem strange to Americans / Western Europeans today, but this was not an isolated case and while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing (with the right approach and an amount of luck). A more modern example is Turkey, where Atatürk revised script, clothing, education, and many other aspects of th…

> while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing That's called euro-centrism isn't it. And every westerner believes wholeheartedly that it is the best most constructive thing to do. So it is neither right nor wrong politically. But it does dull the world when every place you go to is Europe in microcosm. That is a true vision of dystopian hell itself.

Nobody pressured Turkey (or Russia, in the era of Peter the Great) into trying to become more like Europe. They chose it on their own. If you're going to say that their choice was wrong, that would be rather paternalistic, don't you think?

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing That's called euro-centrism isn't it. And every westerner believes wholeheartedly that it is the best most constructive thing to do. So it is neither right nor wrong politically. But it does dull the world when every place you go to is Europe in microcosm. That is a true vision of dystopian hell itself.

Spend a couple years in Italy. Spend a couple years in Syria. Come back and tell me which you prefer.

Italy wasn't the nicest place to be in during the 1940s, which would be a fair comparison as far as war-torn states go

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spend a couple years in Italy. Spend a couple years in Syria. Come back and tell me which you prefer.

The one not at war obviously. Being in Europe didn't save Bosnia from being a pretty awful place to be in the 90s.

Our part of Europe is... special.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#26
post #17
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just perception - there was a very real conflict in the 19th century between traditional Russian values and western ideas such as nihilism and socialism. Dostoevsky was such an idealist in his youth, then turning his back on those movements after being imprisoned in hard labor camp. In his book Demons, he very much groks the dangers of these western ideas, which led to the disastrous 70 year reign of the Bolshevi…

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

Most people with a regard for human life consider mass murder[1] on a scale hitherto unseen[2], which is really saying something given that the world had just seen WW2, to be disastrous.

[1] Thus not including battlefield deaths of soldiers.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet...

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#27
post #16

As someone with a beard, I just cant imagine shaving every morning. Seems like a huge pain in the ass and waste of time. You do you if thats your thing though.

Eh, for me it takes less time than brushing my teeth. Then again under lockdown it's more like once or twice a week than daily. I suppose that counts against my argument though, if it was so easy why don't I still do it daily?

There are a lot of easy things that we don't do everyday... We brush our teeth for health & hygiene. We, for the most part, trim/shave our beards for fashion. After all, under lockdown did you always get dressed up in the same way you did before?

Now, if it cost you money to keep your beard, that would be a different situation and probably motivate you more.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#28
post #17
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just perception - there was a very real conflict in the 19th century between traditional Russian values and western ideas such as nihilism and socialism. Dostoevsky was such an idealist in his youth, then turning his back on those movements after being imprisoned in hard labor camp. In his book Demons, he very much groks the dangers of these western ideas, which led to the disastrous 70 year reign of the Bolshevi…

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

Stalin would sign pages and pages of names for execution before going off for a nice weekend at the dacha, just because, let's say for expediency.

You cannot rationalize away the horrors of 20th century Russia, certainly not with these bullet points.

So we killed 30 million people, but look! Sputnik!

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#29

The article states that this was part of an effort to reorient the country's culture. That might seem strange to Americans / Western Europeans today, but this was not an isolated case and while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing (with the right approach and an amount of luck). A more modern example is Turkey, where Atatürk revised script, clothing, education, and many other aspects of th…

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turkey the ability to lunge for a western, secular democracy, and more importantly, manage to keep it (nascent as it is) for a hundred years, up until now.

Erdogan has been in power for twenty years by now — much as he would have loved to dismantle it, this is as far as it has gotten. Imperfect as it is, if it manages to hand power off of Erdogan in 2023 peacefully, Turkish democracy will have passed the acid test. If that doesn’t work, nobody knows.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#30

The article states that this was part of an effort to reorient the country's culture. That might seem strange to Americans / Western Europeans today, but this was not an isolated case and while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing (with the right approach and an amount of luck). A more modern example is Turkey, where Atatürk revised script, clothing, education, and many other aspects of th…

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

Absolutely. Actually the reason I posted that comment in the first place was to solicit reactions from Turks (I am not Turk, but have spent years in Turkey.) The cult of personality factor is high, and somewhat concerning. But (maybe) understandable given what it's counterbalancing, and the background of the people it's intended to influence.
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