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Is Norway the New East India Company?

branko2f7.substack.com

21–30 of 172 posts

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#21
> Moreover, the government has recently decided to expand exploration and production of gas and oil in one of the areas that the very same government acknowledges are most sensitive to climate change — the Arctic Circle.

I believe this is the most egregious charge in the article, which turns out to be true

https://europeangreens.eu/news/norway-opens-arctic-more-dril...

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#22
post #5

Norway is a tiny country, they are largely irrelevant as far as their consumption habits go regarding climate change at large. They are not even a particularly large exporter of oil, outside of top 10 I think. The other countries mentioned are much bigger, not to mention that Nigeria is going to see massive population growth this century. You don't want a country that's projected to have 800 million people to get add…

Norway is the 13th biggest oil producer in the world, and outside the Middle East the 1st per capita.

If you were looking for changes from the first world, you'd start there.

I agree that non-first world countries are the where you'll see the most growth in oil consumption.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#23
I think getting off of fossil fuels should be a worldwide priority, and expanding fossil fuel exploration is a bad way to spend our time and effort as a species. But I don't understand this line:

> Moreover, the government has recently decided to expand exploration and production of gas and oil in one of the areas that the very same government acknowledges are most sensitive to climate change—the Arctic Circle.

My understanding is that the fossil fuels that may be extracted from the arctic circle would be exported and processed elsewhere. The arctic circle is not going to be more affected by climate change just because the fossil fuels causing climate change came from under the arctic circle, right? Or am I missing something here?

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#24
Let's give them some credit here - they've done quite a lot to move the EV industry forward and widespread EV adoption will wreak havoc on the oil industry. Exactly whom and how badly it'll hit is hard to predict, but Norway will be able to take a hit regardless.

But "hypocrisy" aside, the article is generally spot on. Climate change will be addressed by lowering incomes or standards of living anywhere in the world. Schemes to make people give up comforts, personal transport or their houses are going to fail. Schemes that aim to simply decarbonize existing lives (EVs, heat pumps, air capture fuels, carbon capture, novel protein) will succeed. Essentially, convincing people to switch to carbon free alternatives (EVs, protein) is about as much as you can expect from people.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#25

This article is so quick to blame a national government when the problem is squarely on oil and gas companies. It's not like the oil and gas industries haven't lobbied for decades to cover up climate change evidence so that the world would remain dependent on them. They are the ones who ensure that the biggest polluting nations enact any kind of significant climate change reform.

> This article is so quick to blame a national government when the problem is squarely on oil and gas companies.

Is this the first time you've heard of Norway? It's one and the same. Statoil is majority owned by the Norwegian government.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#26
post #4

The idea that Norway would not starve if she gave up on the oil exports is quite something. Edit: deleted a bunch of hyperbole

Why would Norway starve without oil exports? Surely they would figure something else out, its neighbors are not sustained on oil exports so why wouldn't Norway be able to too?

Norway has very diffrent terrain from neighbouring Sweden, she is practically all coastline. Not much easily logged forrest, no big lowland plains for large scale farming

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#27
"If we want to really confront –as opposed to just talking—climate change we should first, be rid of extreme hypocrisy (as this one), and second, design policies that would be acceptable to the population."

I don't really understand the hypocrisy argument. Would it be preferable if Norway continued to produce oil while not doing any work towards climate change? The current oil situation in Norway is a huge political topic and several of the more left wing parties are for stopping oil production - but the population and political system as a whole isn't ready for it. It seems that the current compromise is investing in green energy while making the transition towards non-fossil fuel based economy in the future. The Norwegian population and political system isn't a monolith and the hypocrisy argument just doesn't make sense to me considering different factions promote the different actions.

A bit OT but I've had some discussions with people who seem to care more about perceived hypocrisy and double standards than they care about the actual outcomes of actions. It's morally just if a business ruins the environment or lives of people if they believe that they are in the right about doing it. On the other hand they are morally unjust if they see the issues they are causing and take steps to minimize the externalities. I've chalked this up to a more deontological instead of consequentialist moral stance but I still find it a bit confusing.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#29

This seems like an exciting new phase of climate change denial. Mostly it's the same as one of the previous stages: "pretend dealing with climate change will cost everyone lots of money to put them off doing so" but I like the references to the East India Company. Very worldly and vaguely progressive sounding so ideal to disguise arguments that amount to "dealing with climate change is too expensive lets not bother".…

Dealing with climate change will cost money. The article is suggesting that if climate change activists want to be successful, they need to acknowledge that and start talking about cost-benefit trade-offs. The argument is, explicitly, that this is a precondition for effective political activism. If you don't want to do that, and if you want to kid yourself that transitioning to a carbon-free economy can be done without spending money, fine, but there's no need to misrepresent the original argument.

Re: Is Norway the New East India Company?

#30
post #23

I think getting off of fossil fuels should be a worldwide priority, and expanding fossil fuel exploration is a bad way to spend our time and effort as a species. But I don't understand this line: > Moreover, the government has recently decided to expand exploration and production of gas and oil in one of the areas that the very same government acknowledges are most sensitive to climate change—the Arctic Circle. My un…

I think the point is partially imprecise (the Arctic is actually particularly sensitive to spills, in addition to its sensitivity to climate change) as well as just kind of highlighting the irony/hypocrisy of the situation. “Well sweet, the Arctic is gonna be ravaged by climate change, but I suppose that makes it easier to extract oil and gas and accelerate that climate change! Woot for us!”
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