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Stop hating Java

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Re: Stop hating Java

#21

Post by 16s »

colin_jack wrote: post #20
16s wrote: post #12

It's been my experience that most people who put down Java or C++ or [your language here] have never seriously used the language and are insecure about learning a new language so they make fun of other languages to hide their insecurity. Edit: I'll also add that this is not limited to the Ruby community. One last edit: General Patton once said, "Find what a man is cynical about, and you will know his weaknesses." or…

> General Patton once said, "Find what a man is cynical about, and you'll know his weaknesses" or something like that Abraham Lincoln once said "If you are going to quote a man on the Internet make it accurate", or words to that effect. Only messing, googled and it seems to be "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack."

Sorry, I was paraphrasing and tried to make that clear. I think I captured the spirit of the quote.

Re: Stop hating Java

#22

Post by sigzero »

mullr wrote: post #5
sambeau wrote: post #3

"Refactoring came to us from Java" Maybe the word came from the Java community but people have been carefully restructuring code since code was invented.

It didn't. The wiki tells us that it was first used in 1990, somewhat before Java was on the scene. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_refactoring#History

Smalltalk was famous for it.

Re: Stop hating Java

#23

Post by masklinn »

sambeau wrote: post #3

"Refactoring came to us from Java" Maybe the word came from the Java community but people have been carefully restructuring code since code was invented.

> Maybe the word came from the Java community

Nothing of refactoring came from Java or its community. The formalization of its concepts largely came from the Smalltalk community (Opdyke, Johnson '90; Opdyke '92; Johnson, Opdyke '93; Opdyke, Johnson '93), using unit tests to ensure refactorings don't change behavior came from the Smalltalk community and automated refactoring tools came from the Smalltalk community (Roberts, Brant, Johnson '97; Refactoring Browser http://st-www.cs.illinois.edu/users/brant/Refactory/)

In fact, as you may note both the concept and the name are older than Java itself.

The only claim to fame Java has in relation to refactoring is Smalltalk refugees reimplementing IDEs and refactoring browsers for it.

Re: Stop hating Java

#24

Post by colin_jack »

16s wrote: post #21
colin_jack wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> General Patton once said, "Find what a man is cynical about, and you'll know his weaknesses" or something like that Abraham Lincoln once said "If you are going to quote a man on the Internet make it accurate", or words to that effect. Only messing, googled and it seems to be "Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack."

Sorry, I was paraphrasing and tried to make that clear. I think I captured the spirit of the quote.

Definitely, I was only joking.

Re: Stop hating Java

#25

Post by bromagosa »

mullr wrote: post #5
sambeau wrote: post #3

"Refactoring came to us from Java" Maybe the word came from the Java community but people have been carefully restructuring code since code was invented.

It didn't. The wiki tells us that it was first used in 1990, somewhat before Java was on the scene. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_refactoring#History

Right, http://books.google.com/books?id=1MsETFPD3I0C&lpg=PP1&#3... It actually came from Smalltalk, just for a change.

Re: Stop hating Java

#26

Post by nirvdrum »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #13
yock wrote: post #8

All you need to do to experience this first hand is go to one Ruby meetup. The roundtable introductions at my local Ruby brigade are often seasoned with AA-like declarations of soberness such as "Hi, I'm So-and-so and I've been Java-free since 2006." As a Java pro (and someone who really does like Java) it's a little disheartening. On one hand I know they don't really mean to belittle the technology that pays my bill…

Java, by design, imposes an upper-bound on cleverness/productivity that can be feel stifling to some. Thus, it becomes a badge of honor to graduate to sharper tools, such as Ruby. Whether they're cutting themselves (and others around them) with them is another story, of course. We need more devs who are not so emotionally invested in their tools. Not that they shouldn't care about them, but the loud-mouthed, posturin…

I'm totally fine with different strokes for different folks. But I don't buy the productivity argument. For any reasonably sized project, productivity tends to level out regardless of language or platform.

Re: Stop hating Java

#27

Post by mhd »

jinushaun wrote: post #4

C# is a better Java anyway.

Modula-3 was a better Java way before somebody thought of naming a programming language after an Indonesian island…

[considering that there are 17000 Indonesian islands, this statement might not be factual]

Re: Stop hating Java

#28

Post by mgkimsal »

benihana wrote: post #7

What I don't understand is, why does this guy care if other people don't like the language he likes? It doesn't change the number of Java jobs or the kind of things you can do with the JVM, so why does he care if a bunch of Rubyists hate Java? Also if he doesn't want people to hate his language, maybe he should use something other than Java.

It does change the number of Java jobs.

The more advocacy happens for a technology - often - the more adoption it gets. While not entirely a zero-sum game, a tech choice for a company generally precludes them from seriously using alternatives. If a company switches from Java to Ruby, for example, that's fewer Java jobs, and more Ruby jobs. I'm working with an org doing this right now, and they will then be looking for Ruby devs instead of Java devs. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Why would the OP using languages other than Java stop people hating Java?

Re: Stop hating Java

#29

Post by xutopia »

yock wrote: post #8

All you need to do to experience this first hand is go to one Ruby meetup. The roundtable introductions at my local Ruby brigade are often seasoned with AA-like declarations of soberness such as "Hi, I'm So-and-so and I've been Java-free since 2006." As a Java pro (and someone who really does like Java) it's a little disheartening. On one hand I know they don't really mean to belittle the technology that pays my bill…

I work in what is essentially a Java shop and the opposite is true for me. The Java programmers work on the data set and provide me with an API. My responsibility is to present the data using a Rails application in a sound UI and in the fastest way possible.

They often make remarks about how Rails is easy and Java programming is where real men make their mark.

I think this comes down to a need for people to feel proud about the tools they use and the things they make.

Re: Stop hating Java

#30

Post by andrewvc »

nirvdrum wrote: post #26
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java, by design, imposes an upper-bound on cleverness/productivity that can be feel stifling to some. Thus, it becomes a badge of honor to graduate to sharper tools, such as Ruby. Whether they're cutting themselves (and others around them) with them is another story, of course. We need more devs who are not so emotionally invested in their tools. Not that they shouldn't care about them, but the loud-mouthed, posturin…

I'm totally fine with different strokes for different folks. But I don't buy the productivity argument. For any reasonably sized project, productivity tends to level out regardless of language or platform.

Oh really..... try building a large scale web app in Forth then.

Tools matter, at every scale.

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