Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#21

Post by msg » Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 3:33 PM UTC

LogicHoleFlaw wrote: post #20

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #9

The whole intuition thing is rather questionable. You learn how things work and then you get used to them. It doesn't matter much whether it's an apple icon or a start button. Neither shouts "shutdown!". It's much more important how much work frequently repeated actions take once you know them. No keyboard shortcut can ever be intuitive in the sense you could have suspected what it does without learning about it. But…

The first time I sat down in front of an Xbox 360, I had to be informed that holding down the (X) button on the gamepad turned on the system. And then later on, that holding it down brought up a menu to shut it off. The Wii remote has a Power button, in the same place as the power button on my TV remote control. No explanation required.

The text underneath the button also says "Power" for the completely clueless.

http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~brossen/ve/images/wiimote.jpg

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#22

Post by Tichy » Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 4:15 PM UTC

delackner wrote: post #19

Let's see, the usability tests showed that a lot of people stared at the windows desktop on startup and were at a loss. Given that they were copying the macintosh what, a decade after the original mac's release, you'd think they might actually look at some user tests of people using a mac. I'm sure they would find that given that the only obvious thing on the screen is a computer icon, they would click on it, and tad…

Xp desktop shows "My Computer", at least it is an option to do so.

Frankly, reading this article gave me nightmarish flashbacks about the time I had to use OS X. Closing down applications was a real pain, if I remember correctly. Clicking the "X" doesn't close them, only hide them. You have to unhide them and find the "Exit" (or whatever) in the file menu to actually close them for good (not the file menu in the window, mind you, but the one in the useless "desktop transforms into application window").

So please don't refer to OS X as an usability icon, definitely not when the question is how to shut down things.

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#23

Post by Hexstream » Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 5:00 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #22

delackner wrote: post #19

Let's see, the usability tests showed that a lot of people stared at the windows desktop on startup and were at a loss. Given that they were copying the macintosh what, a decade after the original mac's release, you'd think they might actually look at some user tests of people using a mac. I'm sure they would find that given that the only obvious thing on the screen is a computer icon, they would click on it, and tad…

Xp desktop shows "My Computer", at least it is an option to do so. Frankly, reading this article gave me nightmarish flashbacks about the time I had to use OS X. Closing down applications was a real pain, if I remember correctly. Clicking the "X" doesn't close them, only hide them. You have to unhide them and find the "Exit" (or whatever) in the file menu to actually close them for good (not the file menu in the wind…

That's like an American saying in London they drive on the "wrong" side of the road.

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#24

Post by orib » Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 6:12 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #4

This is just more illustration of the cultural difference between the two camps of developers: Microsoft: Yes this seems strange, but this is actually what the users want - and we have tests to prove it - so we'll do it Linux: RTFM n00bz! Ubuntu! Ubuntu!

Sorry, but all the larger Linux vendors -- Gnome Foundation, Novell, KDE Foundation, Canonical, Redhat, Mandriva, and more -- have spent time and money on usability studies.

The biggest usability issue Linux has these days is a holdover reputation from the '90s.

The second biggest usability issue is that it's not a Windows clone, so muscle-memory no longer applies.

That's not to say that Linux usability is perfect, but I find that for the most part it's miles ahead of Windows, it's easier to debug when things do go wrong, and Just Works out of the box to a greater degree (downloading drivers is so 1990s) if your hardware is supported.

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#25

Post by Tichy » Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 7:11 PM UTC

Hexstream wrote: post #23

Tichy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xp desktop shows "My Computer", at least it is an option to do so. Frankly, reading this article gave me nightmarish flashbacks about the time I had to use OS X. Closing down applications was a real pain, if I remember correctly. Clicking the "X" doesn't close them, only hide them. You have to unhide them and find the "Exit" (or whatever) in the file menu to actually close them for good (not the file menu in the wind…

That's like an American saying in London they drive on the "wrong" side of the road.

Even if that was true, it would still mean that a comparison to OS X does not really make sense.

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#26

Post by sc » Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 2:21 AM UTC

sysop073 wrote: post #5

I've never understood that confusion, it's nonsense. Start doesn't mean "start your computer", you don't click it to start your computer, so it very obviously means "start doing something". "Shut down" falls under "something" http://sysop073.blogspot.com/2008/03/start.html

Yes, this argument can be made, but when someone tries to vouch for Microsoft's choice of language by describing the fact that you can "_start_ to _shut down_" your computer.

But, if you argue for semantics, semantics are still semantics. You don't _start_ to _shut down_ your computer, and it really shouldn't be a process. You just shut it down.

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#27

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 5:52 AM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #22

delackner wrote: post #19

Let's see, the usability tests showed that a lot of people stared at the windows desktop on startup and were at a loss. Given that they were copying the macintosh what, a decade after the original mac's release, you'd think they might actually look at some user tests of people using a mac. I'm sure they would find that given that the only obvious thing on the screen is a computer icon, they would click on it, and tad…

Xp desktop shows "My Computer", at least it is an option to do so. Frankly, reading this article gave me nightmarish flashbacks about the time I had to use OS X. Closing down applications was a real pain, if I remember correctly. Clicking the "X" doesn't close them, only hide them. You have to unhide them and find the "Exit" (or whatever) in the file menu to actually close them for good (not the file menu in the wind…

[deleted]

Re: Why Have a Start Button to Shutdown Windows?

#28

Post by gaius » Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 11:38 AM UTC

orib wrote: post #24

gaius wrote: post #4

This is just more illustration of the cultural difference between the two camps of developers: Microsoft: Yes this seems strange, but this is actually what the users want - and we have tests to prove it - so we'll do it Linux: RTFM n00bz! Ubuntu! Ubuntu!

Sorry, but all the larger Linux vendors -- Gnome Foundation, Novell, KDE Foundation, Canonical, Redhat, Mandriva, and more -- have spent time and money on usability studies. The biggest usability issue Linux has these days is a holdover reputation from the '90s. The second biggest usability issue is that it's not a Windows clone, so muscle-memory no longer applies. That's not to say that Linux usability is perfect, b…

If you are even thinking about debugging your OS then you are not a typical end user. In fact you could probably figure out and use almost any interface. So for the purpose of usability studies, you're not representative.