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Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

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Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#21
post #10
post #3

Shouldn’t there be an outcry against the suppression of free speech? When Facebook or Google blocks extremist propaganda, it’s a big thing. What jurisdiction’s laws were broken by this company?

You gotta draw the line somewhere - this is way over that line.

Isn't the line due process of law, though? If NSO is allegedly committing a crime, then we can punish them in courts of law that are empowered and qualified to investigate the allegations fully and decide whether to deprive them of their rights. Why would we put these decisions in the hands of Big Tech?

At least, that's what I heard during the debates about deplatforming Parler. It was apparently very bad for private companies to decide that a customer was engaging in distasteful but legal actions. What is the principled argument that it was not okay for AWS to take down Parler but it's okay for AWS to take down NSO?

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#22
post #3

Shouldn’t there be an outcry against the suppression of free speech? When Facebook or Google blocks extremist propaganda, it’s a big thing. What jurisdiction’s laws were broken by this company?

delivering malware seems like it runs afoul of the computer fraud and abuse act

Sure, and it "seems like" the extremist propaganda that Big Tech shut down was violating all sorts of other laws like incitement.

Is "seems like" enough of a reason now for private companies to choose not to contract with other private companies? Or should we go to a judge and jury in both cases?

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#23
post #3

Shouldn’t there be an outcry against the suppression of free speech? When Facebook or Google blocks extremist propaganda, it’s a big thing. What jurisdiction’s laws were broken by this company?

>Shouldn’t there be an outcry against the suppression of free speech?

Only if someone was one of the many people who don't understand what Free Speech is or incorrectly think of rights only in terms of themselves and people they like, not for those who they don't. In this case, Amazon is exercising their own Free Speech rights. Free speech necessarily (and as a matter of law) means the freedom to not speak and to not associate with other people. If I want to lend my support to a specific candidate with a sign in my field, I necessarily must have the right to refuse signs by everyone else. If the government puts a gun to my head and forces me to let every single candidate put a sign in my field, then the effect is no special endorsement for anyone and a flagrant violation of my free speech rights.

Someone denying another person the use of their own private property because of disapproval over their behavior doesn't generally mean any free speech issues, quite the contrary. As always there are certainly very rare edge cases, but none of them apply to a situation like this. Amazon refusing business to someone due to their race or gender or the like would be a problem, but "spies working with authoritarians" is not a Protected Class.

>What jurisdiction’s laws were broken by this company?

Why would that matter? Amazon isn't the government. They aren't threatening with force/arresting/jailing/killing the NSO Group, just refusing to continue their business relationship. So they aren't restricted to caring about only illegal behavior. In fact a core part of the whole point of free speech is to move consequences into the realms of social and economic, rather then force, not to eliminate all consequences entirely. There are a few limited legal instances they can't discriminate over. Otherwise they can deal with whomever the hell they want.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#24

Ouch. > The Amnesty report said NSO is also using services from other companies such as Digital Ocean, OVH, and Linode ... We've been using Digital Ocean for a few years now (sqlitebrowser.org), and they've been really good. Hopefully they look into this and take some useful action. :)

I have to say I'm not surprised that NSO and similar entities are using any CDN/large-scale hosting company they can find. The bigger the better, and spreading their stuff around as widely as possible with as much obfuscation in server purpose as possible. Such things are impossible or problematic to block/null-route without breaking many other things hosted at same AS.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#25

I contacted Amazon to report an advertiser out of Tel Aviv that was using JavaScript hosted on CloudFront to fingerprint user's devices and if an Android device was detected a fake media player or fake CAPTCHA would trick user's into accepting push notifications for fake virus warnings to install questionable apps from the Play Store. This script also pushed ads for a fake AdBlock app that was a dropper for banking t…

Did they reply in the negative or just not respond?

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#28
Anyone notice that this statement from NSO in the article doesn't make sense:

"NSO does not operate its technology, does not collect, nor possesses, nor has any access to any kind of data of its customers."

If this is true, how do we have a singular list of all phone numbers penetrated? If there was this type of "segmentation" or firewall between NSO and its clients, why was there this huge central data leak?

NSO is tracking what its clients are doing. It may not be telling its clients it is also tracking them. I wouldn't be surprised if NSO could also access every one of those penetrated devices as well independently of its clients.

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#29
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

delivering malware seems like it runs afoul of the computer fraud and abuse act

Sure, and it "seems like" the extremist propaganda that Big Tech shut down was violating all sorts of other laws like incitement. Is "seems like" enough of a reason now for private companies to choose not to contract with other private companies? Or should we go to a judge and jury in both cases?

>Sure, and it "seems like" the extremist propaganda that Big Tech shut down was violating all sorts of other laws like incitement.

Most of it actually wasn't FWIW, hateful extremist content is generally perfectly legal free speech. "Incitement" gets used way, way too often on the internet, almost nothing that gets posted online is legal incitement. But neither "Big Tech" (such a dumb term) nor Hacker News nor a random forum on birds needs any violation of law or anything else to moderate what gets posted on their sites. It doesn't have to be "negative" or whatever at all even. There is nothing illegal or objectionable about someone who likes discussing trains for example. But if you post lots just about trains on a birder forum they may delete all your posts and ask you to stop because they want to focus on birds, and if you continue to do so they can delete everything and ban you. Why would there be anything wrong with that?

Private society looking at extremist content and saying "we're not going to shoot you over it but we do strongly object and we're going to socially ostracize you and deny you business and our support in any way we can" is free speech working as intended.

>Is "seems like" enough of a reason now for private companies to choose not to contract with other private companies?

Uh, yeah? People can refuse to do business with each other for nearly any reason at all, and definitely for anything other people merely say or do (at least, within the bounds defined by any existing contracts, but Amazon has covered its bases pretty well there to put it mildly).

Re: Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure

#30
post #3

Shouldn’t there be an outcry against the suppression of free speech? When Facebook or Google blocks extremist propaganda, it’s a big thing. What jurisdiction’s laws were broken by this company?

I dunno. NSO group is extremely capable. I know a lot of folks go back and forth on the “if you don’t want X vendor to shut you down then go build it yourself” and for various reasons. But in the case of NSO group I feel like AWS cutting them off is probably more of an annoyance than anything else. They’re gonna be ok.
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