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Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

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21–30 of 56 posts

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#21
post #9

I remain confused by why people believe that "the community" should be able to set price caps on artwork owned by corporations. If Warner Music wants to charge $5 a play for Mylie Cyrus, I'm certainly not going to pay it, but how is it "wrong"? I'm surprised and happy that Pandora and Last.fm can exist at all, but I don't understand what entitles them to exist. We don't have a "right" to consume major label music.

Actually, this is the solution for Pandora:

Go the route of a two-tier system, where users who listen to ad-supported music get to listen to music whose label doesn't demand more than $X, and to listen to music whose label demands too much you have to pay $Y per month, where Y must be calculated to cover the costs of the royalties. Pandora needs to realize that it's the future, and be confident about that. Relegate the music owned by extorting labels to the digital ghetto and be done with it. Eventually the great artists that are under a label will go independent, so you won't necessarily be killing off the best artists, in the long run. The important thing is that Pandora and it's investors have some balls.

This would work great for me, because the majority of the time, I don't really care all that much who I'm listening to, really; I'm after particular styles and sounds. Our current "system" of fan-dom is really just a way to keep track of what you like. If the Genome project is capable of keeping track of what I like for me,then I don't have to worry about who it is. This won't kill "fandom" either, because there will still be a handful of artists that I'll really like, and best of all, I'll discover them through the Genome's recommendations instead of ridiculous label promotions.

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#22
post #2

That makes me really really sad :( Pandora is one of the rare services which just scream quality. The service itself is great, the web interface is slick, the ads are slick, the iPhone app is amazing.

"Our artists and copyright owners deserve to be fairly compensated for the blood and sweat that forms the core product of these businesses," said Mike Huppe, general counsel for SoundExchange." Keeping in mind that traditional radio does not pay any fees for playing music, Mike Huppe is in for a treat if Pandora is shut down. Tons of infuriated, tech savvy users will have his name and an axe to grind. I don't think S…

Well I just used prankdialer to rick roll him.

Sadly that is about as much power as I seem to have without actually making an effort.

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#24

They should do an independent artists and non-RIAA version. Now that they have people's musical taste profiles and an established user base, the next step is to profile many more said tracks.

They totally should, BUT it seems SoundExchange STILL gets the money through something like lobbied-through by RIAA legislation of compulsory licensing even for non-label music (now that I'd call borderline criminal) http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/04/30/riaa-... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/24/141326/870/429/32706...

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#25
post #2

That makes me really really sad :( Pandora is one of the rare services which just scream quality. The service itself is great, the web interface is slick, the ads are slick, the iPhone app is amazing.

"Our artists and copyright owners deserve to be fairly compensated for the blood and sweat that forms the core product of these businesses," said Mike Huppe, general counsel for SoundExchange." Keeping in mind that traditional radio does not pay any fees for playing music, Mike Huppe is in for a treat if Pandora is shut down. Tons of infuriated, tech savvy users will have his name and an axe to grind. I don't think S…

I find some satisfaction in the losses the two publicly traded labels are making:

Time Warner: 21 million USD in loss EMI: 260 million GBP loss (~ 520M USD)

There is no info on the others, but it would be hard for them to make big bucks while Warner Music Group's stock drops 74%.

http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chd...;

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#26
post #9

I remain confused by why people believe that "the community" should be able to set price caps on artwork owned by corporations. If Warner Music wants to charge $5 a play for Mylie Cyrus, I'm certainly not going to pay it, but how is it "wrong"? I'm surprised and happy that Pandora and Last.fm can exist at all, but I don't understand what entitles them to exist. We don't have a "right" to consume major label music.

This reminded me of an essay in last week's New Yorker about "The Permission Problem" (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2008/08/11/080811ta_...). In summary, when too many stakeholders are involved in a deal, the deal tends to fall through, because any one of the stakeholders is likely to demand nearly the entire value of the deal (since they can kill it by denying their permission).

Radio (Internet and other) doesn't exactly fit that, since you could still have a viable radio station without playing, say, any Beatles songs, but it is similar. If, in order to have an Internet radio station, you needed to negotiate with the owner of every song you wanted to play, running such a station would be prohibitively expensive. Having an organization such as SoundExchange with the authority to collect royalties for copyright holders is one solution to that problem.

That doesn't answer your question, though. One answer is that such fees are so high that they make SoundExchange useless, at least as far as Internet radio goes (as opposed to Satellite), because no one can afford it, so such fees effectively kill Internet radio. If we were talking about a free market, an appropriate response to this could be, "let them die out, and some other competitor can take their place and make a better deal with Internet radio stations". However, we're not. SoundExchange is granted monopoly power by the US Copyright Office. If, in exchange for that power, it does not grant a fair deal to Internet radio stations, then US citizens should have the ability to act through their government to change that.

Note also that individual copyright holders are granted monopolies to those works by the government. A reasonable stance, I think, is - if the government gives you a monopoly on something, you have a responsibility to charge fair prices for that thing. Prices that prevent a new industry, for which there is much demand, from growing are probably not fair.

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#27
post #24

They should do an independent artists and non-RIAA version. Now that they have people's musical taste profiles and an established user base, the next step is to profile many more said tracks.

They totally should, BUT it seems SoundExchange STILL gets the money through something like lobbied-through by RIAA legislation of compulsory licensing even for non-label music (now that I'd call borderline criminal) http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/04/30/riaa-... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/24/141326/870/429/32706...

Sounds like SoundExchange are not only passing-off but should be subject to anti-trust laws.

Other solution: Pandora opens-source its software and open-content its listener profiles to allow overseas based clones, and then find a different business model.

Can MusicBrainz start sound-profiling tracks?

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#28

They should do an independent artists and non-RIAA version. Now that they have people's musical taste profiles and an established user base, the next step is to profile many more said tracks.

That's actually an cool idea. I mean, if they can really pick your preferences effectively, you don't need 'stars' anymore.

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#29
post #9

I remain confused by why people believe that "the community" should be able to set price caps on artwork owned by corporations. If Warner Music wants to charge $5 a play for Mylie Cyrus, I'm certainly not going to pay it, but how is it "wrong"? I'm surprised and happy that Pandora and Last.fm can exist at all, but I don't understand what entitles them to exist. We don't have a "right" to consume major label music.

I wonder if it is not also the artists "fault": they chose to be represented by the music industry. Apparently alternative channels have not yet attracted sufficient talent to create a radio service based on it.

Re: Pandora: Giant of Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

#30
post #26
post #9

I remain confused by why people believe that "the community" should be able to set price caps on artwork owned by corporations. If Warner Music wants to charge $5 a play for Mylie Cyrus, I'm certainly not going to pay it, but how is it "wrong"? I'm surprised and happy that Pandora and Last.fm can exist at all, but I don't understand what entitles them to exist. We don't have a "right" to consume major label music.

This reminded me of an essay in last week's New Yorker about "The Permission Problem" ( http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2008/08/11/080811ta_... ). In summary, when too many stakeholders are involved in a deal, the deal tends to fall through, because any one of the stakeholders is likely to demand nearly the entire value of the deal (since they can kill it by denying their permission). Radio (Internet and othe…

If, in order to have an Internet radio station, you needed to negotiate with the owner of every song you wanted to play, running such a station would be prohibitively expensive.

I think this can be solved using technology and micropayments. The artists could register their songs in some sort of online database, with the price they are willing to accept. This would make a free market where the artists could decide what their songs are worth.

I don't think the artists in RIAA would be the first users of this database, but independent labels might be interested. An unknown artist could set a lower price to make their music more attractive for radio stations.

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