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Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

appleinsider.com

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Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#21

Post by gcthomas »

mhandley wrote: post #12
tudorw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"An estimated 19,452 iPhones were sold every day in the UK in 2019", give them a break, obviously struggling to get traction.

So that's around 7 million phones per year. Assuming around £700/phone and 30% profit (very rough made up numbers), that should be £1.5B/year profit. If the judgement is for £3B to £5B as the article states, I can see why they might decide to exit the UK market. But that only makes sense if they don't then lose the patent cases in other juristictions, and end up having to pay similar royalties anyway.

I'm not sure that leaving the market will absolve Apple of paying the judgement, so staying in the UK market will help them recoup the cost. Leaving would be unlikely to improve their bottom line, so the judge was right - no evidence Apple will leave. This is just posturing, which won't go down well in front of a High Court judge.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#22

Post by throw0101a »

mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

> A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the state to extract money from companies actually producing goods.

Devil's advocate:

If the original holder of a patent is a small fry, and does not have the resources to go after the big fish if they take advantage of the patent, shouldn't the original inventor have the right to sell the patent to get something, and then the new holder can use their potentially larger resources to get licensing compliance.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#23

Post by wccrawford »

benjaminjosephw wrote: post #5

The UK has a relatively strong chance of creating decent competitive challengers to Apple if the UK market opens up with their exit. Even if a few consumers are frustrated in the short term this could lead to a fantastic outcome for a competitive consumer marketplace over the long-term.

It would create quite a power vacuum, and it would scare people in other countries as well.

But I'm not convinced that it would cause a new competitor to exist. I think it's more likely that existing companies will eat up that market instead, and I don't think there are any UK companies poised to take over that market segment.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#24

Post by mjburgess »

throw0101a wrote: post #22
mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

> A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the state to extract money from companies actually producing goods. Devil's advocate: If the original holder of a patent is a small fry, and does not have the resources to go after the big fish if they take advantage of the patent, shouldn't the original inventor have the right to sell the pate…

Sure -- my conditions were on the holder of the patent, not whether it can be sold.

In the case the patent owner isn't doing any R&D or engaging in economically productive activity (at all; nor esp. related to the patent).

I think we need, even a very minimal, condition here:

The government is only going to shake-down your competitor if you're actually in the same market. If you're just a guy hold a slip of paper, sorry, the government isn't your muscle.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#25

Post by Kiro »

throw0101a wrote: post #22
mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

> A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the state to extract money from companies actually producing goods. Devil's advocate: If the original holder of a patent is a small fry, and does not have the resources to go after the big fish if they take advantage of the patent, shouldn't the original inventor have the right to sell the pate…

No, because patents shouldn't even exist to begin with.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#26

Post by Taniwha »

mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

How would this look different from someone holding a perfectly valid patent that Apple was using without licensing it?

(I have no idea as to whether this one is valid or not, I'm as against patent trolls suing people with bogus patents as anyone else)

Surely the patent IS the innovation, and a perfectly valid way to use that innovation is to license it to larger companies.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#27

Post by paulcole »

moshiv wrote: post #8
benjaminjosephw wrote: post #5

The UK has a relatively strong chance of creating decent competitive challengers to Apple if the UK market opens up with their exit. Even if a few consumers are frustrated in the short term this could lead to a fantastic outcome for a competitive consumer marketplace over the long-term.

It will never happen. Just have to count the number of iphones and macs in the hands of people with power.

Also it’s a nearly free victory to anybody challenging the incumbents in power at the time. Imagine being one of the people on duty when Apple (a hugely popular consumer brand) pulls out of your country. Hard to explain that one to the constituency and come out looking good.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#28

Post by mjburgess »

Tenoke wrote: post #20
tut-urut-utut wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, I'm glad it's actually targeting Apple. There are a bunch of small innovative companies targeted by patent trolls that don't have means of Apple to fight back and actually change the system to be more level-headed. But I'm afraid Apple will not fight for the reform of the patent system, but will just try to protect itself. In which case I don't care about the outcome, since Apple also uses the same pate…

They are literally fighting it with this case, no? Exiting if they fail will also be great as it might become more clear to those who can change the system how much of a detriment it is.

If apple's UK iPhone profits really are in the c. 50mil range, then a (5 to 10)bn fee to remain is commercially non-viable.

Note that this is about Apple's ability to sell an iPhone in the UK, and as far as I can see, it wouldnt affect whether the entire company would remain in the UK.

If I were apple, I would withdraw a product from a country which supported this kind of racketeering.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#29

Post by londons_explore »

mjburgess wrote: post #24
throw0101a wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the state to extract money from companies actually producing goods. Devil's advocate: If the original holder of a patent is a small fry, and does not have the resources to go after the big fish if they take advantage of the patent, shouldn't the original inventor have the right to sell the pate…

Sure -- my conditions were on the holder of the patent, not whether it can be sold. In the case the patent owner isn't doing any R&D or engaging in economically productive activity (at all; nor esp. related to the patent). I think we need, even a very minimal, condition here: The government is only going to shake-down your competitor if you're actually in the same market. If you're just a guy hold a slip of paper, so…

> In the case the patent owner isn't doing any R&D

But by licensing the patent to interested parties, they might be supporting R&D of people who might not otherwise be doing R&D in this direction.

The ability to license some tech you know is likely to work in the form of a patent has some value.

Re: Apple threatens UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

#30

Post by onion2k »

mjburgess wrote: post #14

Let's be clear. This is a patent troll company engaged in anti-innovation rent-seeking behaviour. They're seeking billions in payouts and provide zero innovation, research, development, etc. Just because it's targeting Apple doesn't make it right. Companies of this type should be illegal. A patent is a government-sponsored monopoly which shouldn't be "pooled" by "patent companies" whose only purpose is to use the sta…

It shouldn't matter who owns a patent. If the person or company who registered it has decided to 'cash it in' and sell it to a company whose business is patent licensing is OK. Whether or not the patent is valid is the important issue. Optis 'won' $506m in the US as well, but the supreme court reverted the decision on Apple's appeal. The UK court has decided that it is valid (for now).

Something very important to note here is that the comment was made in regard to a case arguing whether or not Apple agree to be legal bound by another case next year to decide the patent license fee. Apple are arguing that they'll leave the market if the fee is too high. The reality is actually that if they agree to a binding agreement in the current case, and then decide the fee is too high after the case next year and refuse to pay it, they'll be banned from selling iPhones in the UK. Their exit from the market won't be their choice.

This remark is a scare tactic aimed at making the court agree a lower patent fee. No one believes that Apple will voluntarily leave the UK market, but if the court imposes a high fee Apple might be forced to. It's highly improbable, but it's not entirely impossible.

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