European Citizen's Initiative for UBI • Hacker News Board

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#21

Post by slg » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

I have no idea if you are right or not, but it is a pretty wild political science theory that a policy can benefit too large of a majority of the population and therefore would be unpopular.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#22

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

the-dude wrote: post #15

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lazy answer if so, and a disappointing take on organizing society if that’s considered acceptable.

If you really want to rebut his comment, tell us how it would work ( including where the money would come from ). Your comment is as lazy.

The money comes from taxing citizens, assets, and corporations, colloquially known as “productivity and wealth”. I’m not European, so it would be rude of me to speak authoritatively on the quality of life Europeans want for each other, but I’ll take a crack at it. A UBI should be an inflation indexed amount that allows for enough food, clothing, and shelter for a dignified life. Not extravagant, but not USSR communist quality. Americans might think of it as a “LeanFIRE” quality of life, or how the elderly live on Social Security.

If we encounter any entitlements susceptible to inflation or supply constraints, we use automation and technology to solve for that (medicine, energy come to mind).

Sam Altman proposed something similar to a UBI with American Equity [1], so I don’t think it’s too crazy of an idea to move towards implementation and experimentation. If you’re a central bank, buying up securities and distribute the dividends into citizen deposit accounts also held at the central bank is another path.

[1] https://blog.samaltman.com/american-equity

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#23

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #17

zozbot234 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is supposed to be a baseline guarantee, so it would be quite OK to size it for the cheapest, least developed areas in the EU free-movement area. This should be coupled with very low or non-existent taxation of entry-level wages, so this "low" UBI would still be a meaningful subsidy even in the wealthiest areas of the EU.

How would it be meaningful when the rent you need to pay in Munich is several times what you need to live in eastern Poland?

> How would it be meaningful when the rent you need to pay in Munich is several times what you need to live in eastern Poland?

Not advocating for this. But the assumption would be if you can’t afford Munich, move.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#24

Post by zozbot234 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #17

zozbot234 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is supposed to be a baseline guarantee, so it would be quite OK to size it for the cheapest, least developed areas in the EU free-movement area. This should be coupled with very low or non-existent taxation of entry-level wages, so this "low" UBI would still be a meaningful subsidy even in the wealthiest areas of the EU.

How would it be meaningful when the rent you need to pay in Munich is several times what you need to live in eastern Poland?

There is no inherent right to live in Munich, whilst there is a natural right to life and a decent subsistence even for those who cannot immediately secure gainful employment. UBI is about securing the latter, not the former - and doing it at the lowest possible cost.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#25

Post by Beaver117 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #14

ericmay wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that work in practice? Wouldn't people just move to the higher UBI areas?

The higher UBI areas would also be higher cost of living areas so in the right setup there would be little incentive to move just for UBI benefits.

But you would get to live in a higher cost area, at no cost to you.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#26

Post by _ofdw » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

yeslibertarian wrote: post #2

[flagged]

>UBI, just another socialist way to subjugate people.

Seems preferable to endless wage slavery at the behest of unaccountable corporations run by billionaire oligarchs.

If the choice is between driving a delivery truck and having to piss in a bottle versus a UBI and upsetting libertarians, I know which one I'd choose.

>When a right requires an obligation to do something by a third party through the use of force by the state, then it is not a right, it's a priviledge.

What "privilege" are you referring to here?

>How are you going to pay for the UBI? through taxes and inflation, which is the worst kind of tax.

Part of the allure of a UBI is that society could do away with separate welfare programs and such, which is probably more efficient from a reduction of bureaucracy standpoint, since you no longer have to have that silo in your government.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#27

Post by j-pb » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

yeslibertarian wrote: post #2

[flagged]

If you don't like the inflation of the governments currency, just build your own. (Thats the libertarian argument when it comes to everything else privatized, e.g. roads, no?)

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#28

Post by wyager » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #10

wyager wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe because "organizing society" according to some grand central plan isn't actually a very effective strategy.

Labor laws, entitlements, taxes, and other public policy are “organizing society”, and based on quality of life metrics most of Europe is crushing it. Sounds effective to me. I am an American living in a third world country in a first world suit, so I am admittedly biased.

Taxes are less destructive than radically restructuring the entire economy, which most UBI advocates seem to want to do.

Median household income in the US is significantly higher than any EU country except Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. I think most Americans who complain incessantly about how "third world" America is view Europe through rose-colored glasses. Any third-world aspects of the US (which do exist) are not caused by our economic policies.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#29

Post by PKop » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #21

wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

I have no idea if you are right or not, but it is a pretty wild political science theory that a policy can benefit too large of a majority of the population and therefore would be unpopular.

In a democracy, where votes are there to be bought, but perhaps not other regimes have this specific flaw.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#30

Post by nr2x » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #16

Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…

Many people have more than a billion, and I can't really think of any sort of luxury you get with 10 billion you can't easily have with 1B. Above the 1B mark you are solely holding wealth to further manipulation of macro-level power structures to your advantage. UBI is a means to forcibly redistribute anything above a certain "unlimited life of luxury" threshold to keep it below oligarchy.

Also, I want fun, cool, tech and if the masses are being put out of work by fun, cool, tech we will have problems, and thereby see far less fun, cool, tech.