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Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

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21–30 of 88 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#21

>Software engineers in all other major countries earns about $30K - $60K on average. These countries include: Japan, China, Australia, Germany, Canada. How are salaries so low there? How do they plan on having competitive tech markets?

These numbers don't seem to be correct. I have around 5 years experience, living in Munich, immigrant, and I earn around 95K (USD). There is no indication that my salary is significantly above average amongst software developers with similar experience. Not a FAANG company, and I earned this money both at a startup and both at an established German company.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#22

>Software engineers in all other major countries earns about $30K - $60K on average. These countries include: Japan, China, Australia, Germany, Canada. How are salaries so low there? How do they plan on having competitive tech markets?

Its a struggle.

>graduates from the Universities of Toronto, British Columbia and Waterloo in 2015 and 2016 revealed 66 per cent of software engineering and 30 per cent of computer science students were leaving Canada for work after graduation.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/business/2021/5/21/1_543849...

I wonder how accurate the quoted average salaries are for Canada though. The high end is what a junior developer with no work history can expect after graduating. Senior developers here regularly make 100k+.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#23

A few thoughts: 1) SMBs don't necessarily hire that many software engineers. Hell, even tons of large companies barely do. I work at a multinational (100 countries) which mostly buys off the shelf software, and uses basic tools like Excel to run a ridiculous amount of internal business processes. 2) Non-software companies tend to hire software companies, not software engineers. Due to the economies of scale that come…

The anti-American scree at the end here is hilariously inaccurate. The "inequality" has a kernel of truth- but that's why having a high salary in the US is amazing.

I'm an average developer at an unglamorous company you've never heard of. I have unlimited vacation and lots of company holidays. Parental leave is full pay for 5 or 6 months, my monthly healthcare costs are the same as a single hour of wage if I was paid hourly, which thankfully I'm on salary because I really only work about 30 hours a week. My city isn't very walkable overall, but my high salary means I can live in the area that is. Oh, and despite buying everything that I want I still save so much that I'll be retired at age 40.

And again- I'm not special or unique or lucky or privileged. I went to a public school in a poor area, got a job by applying to a public listing with no connections, and haven't had any lucky IPO or investment win, just plain boring salary at a plain boring company writing CRUD applications.

Western Europe gives a better quality of life than America if you're low income. America gives better quality of life if you're high income. Eastern Europe is mostly lower quality regardless of occupation.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#24
Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do.

The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. Bay Area, New York, Seattle, Boston) and therefore high compensation.

But there are many, many competent people in the US who aren't willing to move to one of these major cities, who can't pass the FAANG hiring bar, or don't want to.

Those people may be willing to accept a lower-paying job because that suits them better.

It might also be worth considering if the role you're thinking of as "software engineer" is actually a "software engineer". Does an SMB really need a "software engineer"? Maybe what they need is a "software developer", which on average receives a lower salary.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#25

As an Australian working in tech, I can assure you software engineers don’t earn $30-$60k on average. Most people in teams I’ve worked with are on $100k+

You are correct, but the original post clearly used US dollars, but it's not clear you did. So for the context of this discussion I note that $100,000 Australian dollars is $75,000 US dollars at current exchange rates (and 100,000 USD is 132,000 Australian dollars).

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#27
Many SMBs are wary of the cost of software development, and avoid it. The "magic of software," that you can just write a program and have it start printing money [0] for you, is in most cases a pipe dream. Instead, software is usually just like any other business activity, in that it could be a net asset or liability, often depending on how it affects other parts of the business. In addition, if you don't understand software development, you can't manage it, and it can eat you alive.

[0] either through sales or increased productivity if it's software for internal use

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#28

SMBs don’t hire any employees, including software engineers, unless that employee can generate more revenue than they cost to employ. The higher compensation of software engineers means that they won’t be hired for smaller tasks. Generally, SMBs don’t hire software engineers at all unless they’re in the business of making and selling software. Smaller software engineering tasks are contracted out to vendors and custo…

> There are also many junior developers outside of big cities who have salaries more in line with the $60K range you listed. These are not talked about often on HN but they exist.

I was one of these for many years in the late 2000s when I first started using Hacker News. One of the things that I think people in the Hacker News bubble seem to miss is that programming/software engineering is a passion for some and just a paycheck to others. There are a lot of fields where a job being just a paycheck to you aren't looked down on - a lot of people in the Hacker News bubble look down on that. My work at that company was just a paycheck while I gained skills on the weekends and eventually started my own consulting company. I credit reading Hacker News for showing me that the best way to start a company is, well, to just do it.

I worked for a company that needed a developer to keep their pile of ETL logic and server code working as the data formats they acquired from various government agencies and the requirements of their downstream customers changed. I joined right out of college with a salary during my first three months of $48k with the understanding that it would be increased after the first three months - it eventually settled at $56k for the first year. It was a small company that fluctuated between 3 and 8 full-time employees, not counting management. I made a respectable living during the recession in 2008 because my work still made the company money - I was the only full time programmer there at the time. My ending salary with the company in the mid 2010s was $72,000 in a large south-eastern city where that was above the average salary in the area - in line with CoL.

The flipside of making money in a recession when there are still paying clients is when the business loses out on a major contract to a competitor when there's no recession on. Despite riding out the entire recession (with only a small cut to salary due to a four day work-week instead of a five day work-week), the loss of a major contract by my employer meant that the previously stable funding source that allowed me to continue working dried up there. Less than a month after that I was let go, and had to move cross-country to find stable employment as a software contractor. I eventually joined that company full time and my consulting activities have slowed down significantly.

More to the question of this topic - after they let me go, they had two people at the company - the owner, who was the president of the company, and the owner's wife, who was the business manager. The president of the company, who was previously my boss, started maintaining the things I worked on, and offered me some 1099 remote consulting work when occasionally overwhelmed as a way to pick up some of the slack. That's how his small business handled having a software engineer when needed - occasional contracts to fill the hole.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#29
As a freelancer who has worked for several SMB's, I feel qualified to answer. For the most part, they don't. They may hire someone like me for a project, for a few months, and then perhaps an agreement to do a few hours/month of maintenance afterwards. But they don't normally hire a full-time, permanent employee who's a software engineer.

In cases where they do, it is because that is fundamental to their business, i.e. they're a software company or something similar.

There are also SMB companies which provide IT services for other SMB's, which also bill on an hourly basis. It essentially is several SMB's each paying part of the bill, and that IT services company works for several of them.

I should note that, for small companies, something similar often happens for accountants, payroll, and other HR functions; they contract with a company that does this kind of thing for several small businesses.

Re: Ask HN: How do SMBs afford such expensive software engineers in the US?

#30
post #24

Fundamentally, software engineers aren't a commodity. They're not all created equal and they have their own desires and preferences which factor in to what they choose to do. The FAANGs in the US will hire basically anybody, provided that person passes their interview process and is willing to physically relocate to one of their offices, which are usually located in major cities that have high costs of living (e.g. B…

I don't think there's a consistent definition of "software engineer." At one place where I worked, you automatically got the "engineer" title if you had a bachelors degree. This was also true for the distinction between "designer" and "engineer" in the hardware engineering disciplines, and "manufacturing engineer" in the plant.
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