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Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

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Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#21

Post by adventured »

approxim8ion wrote: post #11

This might surprise you but Americans aren't the only people on this forum. But I guess it's okay to leave us all out to pasture if it means you can concentrate just a bit more of wealth.

> But I guess it's okay to leave us all out to pasture if it means you can concentrate just a bit more of wealth.

If we're speaking of things like employment, of course people should look out for their own self-interest. Proposing the opposite is to propose suicide.

The people of Norway should donate their trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund to Togo? As opposed to continuing to concentrate their extraordinary wealth figure and continuing to act in their own national self-interest. Togo only has eight million people, imagine how rich all the people of Togo could be if Norway weren't so selfish.

Next you might want to convince all the world's great economies to drop all trade restrictions and stop protecting themselves.

Then take the next logical step: stop protecting all workers from big globalist corporations, drop all labor laws and protections.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#22

Post by mind-blight »

unethical_ban wrote: post #15
bugmen0t wrote: post #8

Your post seems more nationalist than anything else. I’ve worked at a geo-distributed company for a long while and let me tell you: The diversity of viewpoints and experiences will make your teams stronger, happier and more resilient. That culture needs to be consciously built though. That won’t happen in and of itself. But it’s so, so worth it. To anyone else reading this: Don’t buy into the "us versus them" rhetori…

That's all well and good until you're the one who loses your job. Then you can root for the non-US worker's family who got your job for half the salary. Enjoy your American-owned employer making more money for its stockholders and executives while it continues not paying taxes, to a country that doesn't federally provide basic social services. There is something to be said for watching out for your community. The onl…

This rhetoric may make sense when the job market is gutted, there's a much larger supply of qualified tech workers than demand, and we've reached a global maxima that forces us all into a zero sum competition for capital (think coke vs. Pepsi). That will definitely push pay down.

However, that's almost the opposite of where we are now. The demand for tech workers is growing, and that greens will likely continue for decades as the world upgrades to a modern digital infrastructure. That means that salaries will still rise, none will still be readily available, and the pie if high paying positions will likely increase.

There may also be a solid market for "blue collar" engineers. Folks who build basic but necessary programs. It's not machine learning, but it will pay the bills and potentially lift more families into the middle class around the globe

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#24

Post by _vertigo »

api wrote: post #20

But if you have to live in SF or NYC to earn those salaries, those salaries are not actually that high. I mean isn't $150k in the Bay Area a poverty wage? Can you get a starter home for less than $1M? If everyone has to be in one of a few cities to have a good job, the cost of real estate in those cities will explode to the point that it will soak up all that advantage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent

I make $150K not counting stock (which I am holding, not selling) in San Francisco. I don't feel poor. I live a comfortable lifestyle that makes me feel almost rich compared to others, I feel grateful and fortunate. Sure, I am a little frugal, but I am quite comfortable.

Obviously my overall outlook probably be a lot worse if I didn't have stock in the picture. But I'm still able to live well and save well with my cash salary, so I don't think "poverty wages" is accurate.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#26

Post by hangonhn »

If someone can do what I do here in SV for half the price or less but do it just as well or even better but else where in the world, I don't feel how I'm entitled to my current salary. It's a bit hypocritical for us to bemoan this when software engineers in SV also automated people in other industries out of jobs. People outside of SV, outside of tech, and the US are people too. Don't they also deserve a chance at prosperity and contribution to tech and innovations? I don't know why a fellow software engineer in Mexico shouldn't have a shot at the same jobs as we do here in SV.

My company has started hiring engineers in the Midwest since the pandemic started and they've been awesome additions to our team. There are some great talent to be found among people who simply don't feel so enamored about SV or the Bay Area or simply want to stay where they are. We were drowning in work before and now we have some extra help. I don't see this as a bad trend.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#27

Post by jiriknesl »

int3 wrote: post #7

Why do you hate the global poor?

He/she doesn't. SW developers are not poor anywhere in the World. And what he says is not "don't enable jobs for non-US citizens, because I hate them", he says "..., because we will earn less money". It's a completely different motivation.

So the right question would be:

"Why do you oppose hiring devs (who are upper-middle everywhere in the world) elsewhere?"

And the answer is obviously: "Because it will push salaries down."

Personally, I think it's normal. SW development will be done remotely more and more in the future. Those, who want to build a moat, should probably focus on HW or firmware development.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#28

Post by staticassertion »

adventured wrote: post #21
approxim8ion wrote: post #11

This might surprise you but Americans aren't the only people on this forum. But I guess it's okay to leave us all out to pasture if it means you can concentrate just a bit more of wealth.

> But I guess it's okay to leave us all out to pasture if it means you can concentrate just a bit more of wealth. If we're speaking of things like employment, of course people should look out for their own self-interest. Proposing the opposite is to propose suicide. The people of Norway should donate their trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund to Togo? As opposed to continuing to concentrate their extraordinary wealt…

> Proposing the opposite is to propose suicide.

That feels extreme... I don't think the opposite of "some jobs will leave the US" is "I'm going to kill myself".

Ditto the rest of your post. Nothing but a bunch of straw man/ slippery slope.

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#29

Post by kuahyeow »

approxim8ion wrote: post #11

This might surprise you but Americans aren't the only people on this forum. But I guess it's okay to leave us all out to pasture if it means you can concentrate just a bit more of wealth.

Also, OP, the world is bigger than just the American continent :)

Re: Tell HN: Don't root for WFH, it might destroy well-paying jobs

#30

Post by zaphirplane »

staticassertion wrote: post #16

If jobs start going to other countries we should bring them back by investing in education and producing the best devs in the world. If we can't compete, good for whoever beats us. Trying to hoard the jobs won't work in the long run anyway.

The main discussion aside, there is a living cost that education doesn’t bridge.

If you are living in say London plumbers, mechanics, housing, eggs are more expensive than in say Vietnam.

you can be paid more in London and have a lower quality of life

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