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The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

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Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#21

Post by dlor »

einarvollset wrote: post #14
lettergram wrote: post #11

Maybe we should stop using water for agriculture in Cali? 5% of the water in California is for urban use[1]. It always drove me up the wall when the state issued rules reducing water usage for people when they give plenty of water to all the farms ... IN THE MIDDLE OF A DESERT ... [1] https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's plenty of water for the cities, just not the agriculture. It's part…

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

The price for the water is also several orders of magnitude different. Farms pay 100-1000x less. It's not drinkable so some difference is expected, but this is too much.

Raising their price would ultimately increase food prices across the country - but that's the reality. Right now CA urban water users subsidize food prices across the nation.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#22

Post by [deleted] »

neverminder wrote: post #8
na85 wrote: post #2

Well, those photos of Lake Mead are terrifying. Maybe severe water shortages this summer will wake people up that climate change isn't some liberal fetish.

> climate change isn't some liberal fetish It's not and I'm pretty sure most people agree. But the activists are focusing their efforts in all the wrong places. We have Extinction Rebellion extremists gluing themselves to electric trains in London. Electric. In the mean while, the likes of China and India are by far the biggest culprits while Africa is projected to quadruple it's population while rapidly industrializ…

[deleted]

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#23

Post by einarvollset »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #20
einarvollset wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

There's plenty of rain-safe farmland available in the Northeast. A good amount has reverted to forest because the terrain is easier farther out west, but the rains are failing there. We'll see it reactivated.

Okay great!

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#24

Post by einarvollset »

dlor wrote: post #21
einarvollset wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

The price for the water is also several orders of magnitude different. Farms pay 100-1000x less. It's not drinkable so some difference is expected, but this is too much. Raising their price would ultimately increase food prices across the country - but that's the reality. Right now CA urban water users subsidize food prices across the nation.

If only 5% of CA water is urban use, then surely the subsidy is minimal.

Also - driving the Central Valley I see no end of “Congress stole our water” signs, so clearly some change is happening. Why can’t agriculture in more rain prone areas compete?

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#25

Post by Spooky23 »

einarvollset wrote: post #14
lettergram wrote: post #11

Maybe we should stop using water for agriculture in Cali? 5% of the water in California is for urban use[1]. It always drove me up the wall when the state issued rules reducing water usage for people when they give plenty of water to all the farms ... IN THE MIDDLE OF A DESERT ... [1] https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's plenty of water for the cities, just not the agriculture. It's part…

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

My neighbor growing up had a 300 acre vegetable farm. Now defunct as the family couldn’t compete with subsidized Western and Canadian agriculture.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#26

Post by whoisburbansky »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #17
GavinMcG wrote: post #6

Yet Maricopa County, Arizona (Phoenix) had more growth from 2010 to 2019 than any other county in the U.S.[0] Clark County, Nevada (Las Vegas) wasn't far behind. [0] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2020/pop-esti...

Arizona today is using less water now than it did in the 50s, despite that massive increase in population. There's hope that by the end of the decade it will be entirely groundwater neutral. The population is not really the issue, especially given that domestic usage isn't anywhere close to the largest consumer.

That’s wild to hear, I’d be interested in numbers and/or how they managed to pull that off, what are some resources I can dig into?

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#27

Post by klipt »

zz865 wrote: post #15
lettergram wrote: post #11

Maybe we should stop using water for agriculture in Cali? 5% of the water in California is for urban use[1]. It always drove me up the wall when the state issued rules reducing water usage for people when they give plenty of water to all the farms ... IN THE MIDDLE OF A DESERT ... [1] https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's plenty of water for the cities, just not the agriculture. It's part…

That's not the whole story because when you water a farm much of it goes back into the ground or evaporates into clouds. When you flush the toilet it gets treated then sent to the ocean.

The ocean also evaporates into clouds doesn't it?

But we could certainly improve efficiency by recycling urban water. A lot of people jump to desalination but recycling is like desalination just with fewer solutes, so more efficient.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#28

Post by pg_bot »

einarvollset wrote: post #14
lettergram wrote: post #11

Maybe we should stop using water for agriculture in Cali? 5% of the water in California is for urban use[1]. It always drove me up the wall when the state issued rules reducing water usage for people when they give plenty of water to all the farms ... IN THE MIDDLE OF A DESERT ... [1] https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ There's plenty of water for the cities, just not the agriculture. It's part…

Well, something like 1/3rd of all the vegetables and 2/3rds of all the fruit in the US is grown in California. Where do you propose this gets grown instead?

In other states or internationally. If someone loses their competitive advantage, there is usually someone else there to pick up the slack.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#29

Post by Spooky23 »

einarvollset wrote: post #24
dlor wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price for the water is also several orders of magnitude different. Farms pay 100-1000x less. It's not drinkable so some difference is expected, but this is too much. Raising their price would ultimately increase food prices across the country - but that's the reality. Right now CA urban water users subsidize food prices across the nation.

If only 5% of CA water is urban use, then surely the subsidy is minimal. Also - driving the Central Valley I see no end of “Congress stole our water” signs, so clearly some change is happening. Why can’t agriculture in more rain prone areas compete?

The miracle of the desert is truly a miracle. Sunny warm California is a farmers dream, except for the lack of water.

Re: The American West is drying out. Things will get ugly

#30

Post by b9a2cab5 »

na85 wrote: post #2

Well, those photos of Lake Mead are terrifying. Maybe severe water shortages this summer will wake people up that climate change isn't some liberal fetish.

California's drought isn't caused by climate change, it's caused by industrial scale exports of highly water intensive crops. Photosynthesis effectively locks water into plants that then get transported across the globe, de facto exporting water from California (remember photosynthesis consumes water + CO2 to produce sugar and oxygen). Add on plants like almonds that inherently store moisture inside themselves and you have even greater water exports.
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