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All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

blog.codinghorror.com

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Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#21

Post by ho_schi »

openfuture wrote: post #14

Wow this is a super hostile sentiment, either web or gtfo. A much less hostile statement that is easier to defend would be "All Programming is Network Programming" - could do an interesting syntax comparison based on what kind of network is in question, but I guess people do that all the time with "monads in other programming languages (than haskell)" kind of posts.

I've the same impression. Looking around I see a lot of native host based programming happen, not just Neovim or LSP but also the broad range of apps for smartphones. Usually total statements aren't true.

What would people appreciate? A native client for Slack.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#22

Post by elevenoh »

0x737368 wrote: post #16
PedroBatista wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe what it needed to do, but not what people do with it now. There are entirely “enterprise” systems coded in that thing. It’s an human problem, original JS syntax was fine imho.

Personally, I think that the original JS syntax is absolutely horrendous and is in no small part responsible for the bad reputation JS is still shaking off. Modern JS in comparison is an absolute dream.

I don't think js was ever all that bad, little ambitious however. But modern JS now checks off nearly all my boxes.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#23

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

collyw wrote: post #20
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because people get bored. With CRUD apps, the challenge is (should be) in the domain, wrangling that into a comprehensible shape. The various layers and code should be boring - input, validation, API, business logic, persistence. It's the kinda thing that can already be built using visual programming tools, drag and drop interfaces or a single config file churning out a fully functional CRUD API with all bells a…

I am trying to work out if you are being ironic in your reply or not. I am a software engineer. My job is to solve problems, not to "write code". It just happens that most of the solutions will involve code. The less code that can be written to solve a problem the better. More code is a liability not an asset.

> More code is a liability not an asset.

Unfortunately not all managers agree on that point,

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#24

Post by blowski »

collyw wrote: post #20
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because people get bored. With CRUD apps, the challenge is (should be) in the domain, wrangling that into a comprehensible shape. The various layers and code should be boring - input, validation, API, business logic, persistence. It's the kinda thing that can already be built using visual programming tools, drag and drop interfaces or a single config file churning out a fully functional CRUD API with all bells a…

I am trying to work out if you are being ironic in your reply or not. I am a software engineer. My job is to solve problems, not to "write code". It just happens that most of the solutions will involve code. The less code that can be written to solve a problem the better. More code is a liability not an asset.

I'd say @Cthulhu_ is giving the real reason we'd tell our friends in the pub, rather than the bullshit justifications we give our managers.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#25

Post by NtrllyIntrstd »

smitty1e wrote: post #6

Not sure about Atwood's Law. JavaScript has pride of place in browsers for now. But as WebAssembly gains traction, I look forward to avoiding the ungainly JS syntax in favor of pretty much anything else.

I still find it unfortunate that the guy who invented JS originally wanted to make a lisp but was told to make it more like the C family. Would've been interesting to have lisp run the web. A lot of things might be different today.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#26

Post by mattgreenrocks »

openfuture wrote: post #14

Wow this is a super hostile sentiment, either web or gtfo. A much less hostile statement that is easier to defend would be "All Programming is Network Programming" - could do an interesting syntax comparison based on what kind of network is in question, but I guess people do that all the time with "monads in other programming languages (than haskell)" kind of posts.

I like Jeff Atwood’s take on a lot of things, but this article has always been so thought-leader-y to me. Feels like it was written to make a splash rather than convey truth.

Computing would be immensely dull if we all fixated on our choice of platform to this extent. Platforms and languages are ephemeral and should be treated as such. The web will not always be the dominant platform.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#27

Post by vince14 »

> Sorry Jeff, but your post from today is simply stupid.

> Think only about the embedded programming… do you really think that you can create a web app to control your washer?

> Or do you want a web interface to drive your car?!?

> Get out of your cubicle and look around… you’ll see that there is something else running outside your server and browser.

> By the way, are you planning to create a web app for the BIOS of your computer?

Yes, to all :D

Those comments are golden.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#28

Post by mattbee »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #7

It's interesting. 12 years have passed, and I still prefer a native (not Electron) desktop app to its web equivalent for practically any task, from writing code to working with spreadsheets to PCB design. Even for such a basic task like word processing I prefer to use a local program rather than a web app.

Me too. But this rant still resonates and speaks to a snobbery that's still occasionally alive.

I am surprised that high quality web apps still seem just as rare in 2021 as they did in 2009 despite the explosion of tools. i.e. apps that do something non-trivial, where the network usage disappears under "acceptable interaction time", where the UI toolkit is consistent & discoverable, where nothing is broken.

But it's still true - if you want to program software that people use, it's using web technology or it's a video game or it's a tiny tiny niche.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#29

Post by locallost »

I read the interview of Philip Greenspun in Founders at Work recently and in it he says that he realized applications will be written for the web in the future because you don't have to deal with different operating systems. This was early 90s. It's really amazing that this had actually happened by 2009, and the author of the quoted blog did not yet get it.

It could be that "web programmers" are not smart enough to understand all of what was listed. It could also be that the listed stuff does not actually matter, as it's just one way of doing things. I don't think that having a job that is difficult to do is something that you should wear as a badge of honor, if it can be done in an easier way. The important thing is what you're able to do with the skills and tools you do have, and how much the people that use it like it.

The cynic in me thinks some people spend a long time to understand difficult things and concepts, and therefore don't want to let them go because it will effectively mean that they'd wasted their time.

Re: All Programming Is Web Programming (2009)

#30

Post by ascotan »

There was a time back not so long ago when there was a craze to rewrite every desktop app as a webapp because the web was going to eat everything. It was the hype cycle of web 2.0. Those days are gone imho. Instead it was mobile that ate everything.

The OP that Jeff is commenting on isn't wrong. I see it everyday with junior devs that have very little practical experience with real engineering but they know a little python, maybe a javascript framework and can figure out AWS well enough to deploy it all using serverless.

This has been going on in multiple tech stacks - not just desktop programming. There was a time, for example, when people didn't use ORMs or nosql. Working with a real database is becoming a lost skill. One of the dirty secrets of the success of nosql is frankly because new developers are just bad at databases and don't understand fundamental skills. Ditto for AWS and application architecture.

I see it as somewhat inevitable that the next gen of developers want to do easier development. The logical conclusion of this will be 'point and click' (LCARS from Star Trek?). 30 years from now we'll be complaining that our kids dont know the 'complexities' of python/javascript development and do nothing but 'low code' development.

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