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Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

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Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#21

Post by lottin »

timdaub wrote: post #10
mrtksn wrote: post #4

The strictly limited amount of BTC makes this into a land grab. First comers are entitled to the services of the real economy due to their virtue of being first(or lucky to be on the right place at the right tweet). Musk is right on this one: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1401251430015582209?s=21 Unlike fiat money, BTC is not an accounting tool for value exchange. Unlike actual land, it doesn’t have any intrins…

The intrinsic value argument is a funny one. What's the idea behind it? Assume you have asset X but then one key assmption fails. Now, is asset X still valuable considering the failed assumption? For land, you can say that even in the case that society collapses it is still valuable. Or is it? What exactly is the assumption that deems BTC's intrinsic value zero and land's value more than zero?

The point is that the process of bitcoin adoption is in fact a massive huge wealth-redistribution mechanism between adopters. Making people extraordinarily rich just because they were the first to buy a new currency and other people extraordinarily poor just because they were the last isn't probably something most people would agree with.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#22

Post by timdaub »

mrtksn wrote: post #19
timdaub wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intrinsic value argument is a funny one. What's the idea behind it? Assume you have asset X but then one key assmption fails. Now, is asset X still valuable considering the failed assumption? For land, you can say that even in the case that society collapses it is still valuable. Or is it? What exactly is the assumption that deems BTC's intrinsic value zero and land's value more than zero?

The idea behind it is that it is useful beyond the accounting. Gold has a very little intrinsic value. Decorative and tool making value due to its physical properties are there but they are minor comparatively. BTC has none. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a value, of course but it’s simply a value within a certain ecosystem.

OK but then considering your definition, I'd disagree. Bitcoin but more importantly general purpose blockchains (e.g. ETH) give rise to digital economies where real people can participate and earn money through work. Since 2019, I've now - for multiple months - been able to make an income by coding for various DAOs. Surely, BTC/ETH was used for accounting. But the social structures that formed and enabled me to have an income I can pay my rent with are of value to me and only existed because of the blockchain's technological capabilities (e.g. smart contracts). Ergo, there's intrinsic value beyond accounting.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#23

Post by mrtksn »

solotronics wrote: post #17
timdaub wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The intrinsic value argument is a funny one. What's the idea behind it? Assume you have asset X but then one key assmption fails. Now, is asset X still valuable considering the failed assumption? For land, you can say that even in the case that society collapses it is still valuable. Or is it? What exactly is the assumption that deems BTC's intrinsic value zero and land's value more than zero?

Land ownership is a totally abstract idea anyways it's just been a thing for longer.

Ownership is abstract, there are communities where the concept is rejected but the land has intrinsic value regardless of the claims of those who use it.

Capitalist, Communist or Anarchist - the land doesn’t care, it grows the tomatoes the same way.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#24

Post by dangero »

FreeTrade wrote: post #18

Sigh. Bitcoin BTC, at 3 transactions per second, doesn't have the capacity to support El Salvador's economy. Even if Lightning worked (it doesn't), BTC doesn't have enough capacity to open channels for users at a reasonable cost. Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. BTC is not cash anymore, it won't work as such. There are other cryptos that could work, we'll have to…

Forget Lightning— Did you know you can transfer Bitcoin from one user to another on Coinbase with zero transaction fees instantly? Any exchange can do the same. Centralized layer two scales just fine for many use cases and is working today.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#26

Post by solotronics »

FreeTrade wrote: post #18

Sigh. Bitcoin BTC, at 3 transactions per second, doesn't have the capacity to support El Salvador's economy. Even if Lightning worked (it doesn't), BTC doesn't have enough capacity to open channels for users at a reasonable cost. Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. BTC is not cash anymore, it won't work as such. There are other cryptos that could work, we'll have to…

I think for smaller day to day transactions people are using Lightning or an app like Strike that is really using lightning underneath. For years now the problems of TX per second, fee, and speed have been worked on. https://strike.me/ is a Paypal like app that's built totally on Lightning and they just got setup in El Salvador recently. I think Jack Mallers and Strike are probably one of the main reasons were seeing this BTC law happen there now.

Re: Bitcoin becomes Legal Tender in El Salvador

#27

Post by timdaub »

mrtksn wrote: post #23
solotronics wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land ownership is a totally abstract idea anyways it's just been a thing for longer.

Ownership is abstract, there are communities where the concept is rejected but the land has intrinsic value regardless of the claims of those who use it. Capitalist, Communist or Anarchist - the land doesn’t care, it grows the tomatoes the same way.

Surely if you look via godmode on earth, you can even ascribe intrinsic value to it in the case of complet societal collapse where there's only tribes fighting for tomatoes. But is that a useful view?
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