Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#21

Post by nikodunk » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

jolux wrote: post #4

I applaud this accomplishment. I think there will be a push to manufacture more semiconductor-intensive products in the US over the next several years as tensions with China continue to heat up and Taiwan is left as a single point of failure. I know progress is already being made with TSMC building new fabs in the US. I will note that Purism do not say what their production capacity is, and that it would probably be…

To your point on production capacity:

This reminds me of pushback in the early days of Tesla. Sure they can build 1,000, but can they build 10,000. Now we’re at “sure they can build 500,000, but can they build 5M.”

I think the answers “yes”, if the demand is there. And I agree with you that industrial policy could help jumpstart that demand.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#22

Post by krrrh » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

Interesting to note that they started US manufacturing with the Librem Key[1] in 2019 which I imagine has a much lower total labor component than a full phone. Paying double the price for an under specced product is a lot easier to justify at $59 than $2000, especially for something so security essential. I would be happy to pay the premium just for the cool factor and to support supply chain diversity. I just wish they would release a USB-C NFC version of it.

[1] https://puri.sm/posts/made-in-usa-librem-key/

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#23

Post by yifanlu » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

Yeah it’s 2021 and Chinese manufactured are more reliable and higher quality than anything American made. As an anecdote I build PCBs for a hobby and I’ve purchased PCBs and chips from both cheap Chinese fabs and suppliers as well as Americans ones. The only issues I’ve ever had were with American ones (which were many times more expensive) and I’ve stopped using them completely.

I would be curious if librem will ever release data regarding failure rates of their American made phones versus non-American made ones. But considering how they’re branding this and the kind of person who will spend the premium to buy it, I doubt they will ever say anything.

Also after the Snowden revelations, I laugh at the idea that American made products are somehow more “secure”. Sure we (as in US intelligence community) think China puts back doors in things but from the Snowden revelations we KNOW that American companies like Cisco puts backdoor into things.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#24

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

mboperator wrote: post #20

sokoloff wrote: post #5

$800 (down from $900) for the Librem 5; $2000 for the Librem 5 USA edition. (Edit: I'm leaving this paragraph here as it attracted comments that would no longer make sense if I edited/removed, but it was a result of a flawed premise [bad math in my head]) That seems a significant premium over the actual cost differential, but they self-admit "this is for customers who have hard requirements on sourcing" rather than "…

Seems like this is priced for military & contractors. Genuinely hope they can find success in that niche. Even if their products never compete with the iPhone in ubiquity, having a domestic company with full stack hardware manufacturing experience is a tremendous asset both to the country and to other companies who aspire to bring their own manufacturing stateside.

>Seems like this is priced for military & contractors.

You would normally expect to see the magic words "Berry Compliant" if the target market includes that. Not super-clear how mobile phones would fall into that particular regulatory tranche.

EDIT: no, my bad, that only applies to (broadly defined) fabric products.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#25

Post by Scene_Cast2 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #5

$800 (down from $900) for the Librem 5; $2000 for the Librem 5 USA edition. (Edit: I'm leaving this paragraph here as it attracted comments that would no longer make sense if I edited/removed, but it was a result of a flawed premise [bad math in my head]) That seems a significant premium over the actual cost differential, but they self-admit "this is for customers who have hard requirements on sourcing" rather than "…

This multiplier (800x2.5) seems much lower than I'd expect.

For prototype quantities (<100), I have consistently seen a multiplier of 8 or so, for the exact same spec (and verified within-spec after receiving the parts).

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#26

Post by nickserv » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #17

The US is the biggest surveillance state of all, why is this a step forward?

The West in general has been on a downward trend when it comes to manufacturing. Areas that were relatively wealthy decades ago now have high rates of unemployment, crime, drug abuse, shortened lifespans etc. If projects like this work out it could help reverse that trend.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#27

Post by cle » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:48 PM UTC

yifanlu wrote: post #23

Yeah it’s 2021 and Chinese manufactured are more reliable and higher quality than anything American made. As an anecdote I build PCBs for a hobby and I’ve purchased PCBs and chips from both cheap Chinese fabs and suppliers as well as Americans ones. The only issues I’ve ever had were with American ones (which were many times more expensive) and I’ve stopped using them completely. I would be curious if librem will eve…

Even assuming that all hardware is backdoored, it can still make sense to use hardware from your own country, since your own government probably doesn’t want to harm its own economic interests.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#28

Post by yumraj » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

yifanlu wrote: post #23

Yeah it’s 2021 and Chinese manufactured are more reliable and higher quality than anything American made. As an anecdote I build PCBs for a hobby and I’ve purchased PCBs and chips from both cheap Chinese fabs and suppliers as well as Americans ones. The only issues I’ve ever had were with American ones (which were many times more expensive) and I’ve stopped using them completely. I would be curious if librem will eve…

> Also after the Snowden revelations, I laugh at the idea that American made products are somehow more “secure”.

Be that may, but as a US person I’d rather have US intelligence snooping on me than a foreign hostile entity. There are no ifs and buts about it. For folks in other countries, I leave it to them if they are more comfortable with a democracy, with relatively good relations with most countries in the world, snooping on them or a communist regime, which has issues with each and every one of its neighbors.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#29

Post by 542458 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

Scene_Cast2 wrote: post #25

sokoloff wrote: post #5

$800 (down from $900) for the Librem 5; $2000 for the Librem 5 USA edition. (Edit: I'm leaving this paragraph here as it attracted comments that would no longer make sense if I edited/removed, but it was a result of a flawed premise [bad math in my head]) That seems a significant premium over the actual cost differential, but they self-admit "this is for customers who have hard requirements on sourcing" rather than "…

This multiplier (800x2.5) seems much lower than I'd expect. For prototype quantities (<100), I have consistently seen a multiplier of 8 or so, for the exact same spec (and verified within-spec after receiving the parts).

That actually seems about right to me, at least for the type of mfg I'm used to. Compare low-run CNC quotes from Hubs (China) and Xometry (USA) - Xometry is usually ~2-3x the price. I've seen similar for IM prices although I have less experience there. One caveat is that in China it's relatively cheap to move stuff between factories (Say the part is made in factory 1, then painted in factory 2, then laser-etched in factory 3), whereas in the US as soon as you try to do that setup and freight gets really expensive really fast.

I don't know anything about PCBs or components, so I can't really comment there - maybe the multiplier is worse in that case.

One additional thing to consider is there are often grants or tax breaks for US or in-state manufacturing that can be VERY appealing depending on where you are and what you need done.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#30

Post by Romulus968 » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

This is really cool, but it's $2,000. The problem is the specs don't quite justify a $2,000 price tag. The iPhone 12 Pro Max is $1,099 for 256Gb model. The Librem 5 has 32Gb built in. Granted you can expand storage on the Librem 5, but that's added cost on top of the $2,000. There are other specs to compare, but storage is an easy target.

I think the project is awesome, and I'd be very inclined to purchase one, but I can't justify $2,000 for a comparatively subpar device.