Humans used to sleep in two shifts • Hacker News Board

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#21

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #4

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #2

I think about historical, 2-phase sleep a lot. One reason it will be difficult to restore natural sleep cycles is that life has become increasingly complex; we have exponentially more responsibilities than our ancestors had. In short, we are unlikely have a couple more hours to add to our sleep periods.

This is a wildly romantic and patronizing view of our ancestors. Our ancestors had FAR harder lives with more complex responsibilities than anything you have today. It's just so ludicrous to sit on your couch, eating takeout food, paid for either by social welfare or white-collar work (also done from your couch) and spitball "oh, our lives are just so complicated and hard now". No, your life is stupidly easy now. Tha…

I'm fairly certain you're confusing easy (less death, more ability) with simple (the actual hours that go into an 'easy' life).

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#22

Post by manmal » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

balfirevic wrote: post #10

philipswood wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange that. I'm not really responsible for getting edible food, drinkable water, warmth, cover, shelter from the elements, protection from hostile animals or enemy humans. I also don't have to actually make anything with my own hands. So, yeah, indirectly I do some of these things by earning a salary, paying bills and buying stuff, but I not sure that the work I do day to day is much more complex or responsible tha…

> I don't on a daily basis do things that could get me or my family members killed if I did them wrong. Do you drive?

Driving is certainly the most stressful activity I’m doing on a regular basis - the stakes are really high, death is just a few seconds away. It feels strangely archaic to have this level of risk built into day to day life. I recently got a car with modern safety features and life really feels safer just because of that. I know that the car will start beeping if I drift off course, and on the highway it’s quite unlikely to crash into the car in front of me.

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#23

Post by yoz-y » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #18

codingdave wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a daily basis? No, I don't. And I live 15 minutes outside of the nearest town, a mile from my nearest neighbor, so if I get by driving once or twice a week, surely those who actually live in cities can get by without driving as well.

Less than 5% of the people I've known didn't have significant driving associated with their work. This is over decades, across different metro areas.

This really depends on location. For me for example that number would be inverted.

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#24

Post by bserge » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #4

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #2

I think about historical, 2-phase sleep a lot. One reason it will be difficult to restore natural sleep cycles is that life has become increasingly complex; we have exponentially more responsibilities than our ancestors had. In short, we are unlikely have a couple more hours to add to our sleep periods.

This is a wildly romantic and patronizing view of our ancestors. Our ancestors had FAR harder lives with more complex responsibilities than anything you have today. It's just so ludicrous to sit on your couch, eating takeout food, paid for either by social welfare or white-collar work (also done from your couch) and spitball "oh, our lives are just so complicated and hard now". No, your life is stupidly easy now. Tha…

Modern life is far more mentally taxing and stressful, so we want to go back to the "good old days".

Pre-industrial (and pre-agricultural) life was more physically taxing and stressful, so they wanted to move on to something better and easier.

At least today you can just save up, move to the middle of nowhere and live exactly like they did 500+ years ago, but with much better safety. You can even add some modern tools without much expense.

But it probably gets boring real fast.

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#25

Post by cozzyd » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

balfirevic wrote: post #10

philipswood wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange that. I'm not really responsible for getting edible food, drinkable water, warmth, cover, shelter from the elements, protection from hostile animals or enemy humans. I also don't have to actually make anything with my own hands. So, yeah, indirectly I do some of these things by earning a salary, paying bills and buying stuff, but I not sure that the work I do day to day is much more complex or responsible tha…

> I don't on a daily basis do things that could get me or my family members killed if I did them wrong. Do you drive?

rarely, but biking is even more dangerous (though typically this is because of other people doing the wrong thing).

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#26

Post by a9h74j » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #8

philipswood wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange that. I'm not really responsible for getting edible food, drinkable water, warmth, cover, shelter from the elements, protection from hostile animals or enemy humans. I also don't have to actually make anything with my own hands. So, yeah, indirectly I do some of these things by earning a salary, paying bills and buying stuff, but I not sure that the work I do day to day is much more complex or responsible tha…

> I'm not really responsible for getting edible food, drinkable water, warmth, cover, shelter from the elements, protection from hostile animals or enemy humans. You seem to be disregarding the countless unplanned for things that people assume aren't going to clutter up their lives. A tiny, tiny portion of the things that consume meaningful time each week: trying to turn health insurance into usable medical care or g…

One reason Lewis Mumford suggested that if you include the care and feeding of cars and earning taxes to pay for roads and regulations, it could be quicker to walk or use a wheelbarrow.

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#27

Post by toast0 » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

cperciva wrote: post #13

As the parent of a 2 month old: I wish my sleep were a mere two shifts!

Congrats! I found that as my child aged, the hardest point was when the cycle time allowed for three hours of sleep for the parents[1]. When it was only two hours, it seemed bad, but was way more restful than three hours. Once it got to four hours, it was much better. If possible, lean on external help during the three hour sleep cycle (grand parents, etc).

[1] we needed both parents for feeding logistics, although often it's not required.

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#28

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

lurquer wrote: post #20

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not really responsible for getting edible food, drinkable water, warmth, cover, shelter from the elements, protection from hostile animals or enemy humans. You seem to be disregarding the countless unplanned for things that people assume aren't going to clutter up their lives. A tiny, tiny portion of the things that consume meaningful time each week: trying to turn health insurance into usable medical care or g…

I read your list. It’s very comprehensive. I’d wager an average person from any previous century would trade places with you in a heartbeat. Indeed, I bet an average resident of many third-world countries would do the same. In fact, I bet the average resident of the average trailer park ten miles from where you live would trade places with you.

> I read your list. It’s very comprehensive.

Incorrect. It is a small subset.

> I’d wager an average person from any previous century would trade places with you in a heartbeat. Indeed, I bet an average resident of many third-world countries would do the same.

Sure. Many would. Others would be overwhelmed by the complexity of not just required hours in the day (which tend to increase for the very poor) but also by the many thousands of laws and regulations that can ding us if we run afoul of them. Past that are myriad of requirements from different corps in our lives.

As with some others here, you seem to be confusing (or maybe conflating) 'hard' (as in starvation, disease and invasion) with complex (as in complex).

> In fact, I bet the average resident of the average trailer park ten miles from where you live would trade places with you.

I'll take that bet. Over the last decade we were frequently without food and my wife's mental illness brought ceaseless, life-changing misery to our household. I could go on for many paragraphs but I think this sets the stage.

Where do I collect?

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#29

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #24

bpodgursky wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a wildly romantic and patronizing view of our ancestors. Our ancestors had FAR harder lives with more complex responsibilities than anything you have today. It's just so ludicrous to sit on your couch, eating takeout food, paid for either by social welfare or white-collar work (also done from your couch) and spitball "oh, our lives are just so complicated and hard now". No, your life is stupidly easy now. Tha…

Modern life is far more mentally taxing and stressful, so we want to go back to the "good old days". Pre-industrial (and pre-agricultural) life was more physically taxing and stressful, so they wanted to move on to something better and easier. At least today you can just save up, move to the middle of nowhere and live exactly like they did 500+ years ago, but with much better safety. You can even add some modern tool…

> At least today you can just save up,

Fortunate people can.

Re: Humans used to sleep in two shifts

#30

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sun, May 30, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #23

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than 5% of the people I've known didn't have significant driving associated with their work. This is over decades, across different metro areas.

This really depends on location. For me for example that number would be inverted.

Understood. I can't speak to outside the US, for example.

In any given moment in the US, I know people who live inside major cities, inside metro areas and in rural areas.

Of that group, the number of working folks w/ little to no work-related driving time is very small.