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The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

arraycast.com

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Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#21

Post by bidirectional »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #20
jasode wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fyi if you weren't aware ... most podcasts don't have text of the audio because high-quality (accurate) transcription of podcasts costs money . Example rates: https://www.google.com/search?q=podcast+transcription+servic... So this thread's podcast of 52 minutes of a complex technical topic with multiple speakers could cost ~$200. A programming-related podcast is already a niche topic with a tiny audience and an Array…

Presumably there was a script or at least a summary. Why not publish that as well as any slides used?

Why would there be? It's a recorded conversation between a group of people. Some of them may have some rough notes but maybe not even that.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#22

Post by an1sotropy »

I had thought of APL as something from computing pre-history, with its bizarro custom keyboard, but I learned that APL and other array languages are apparently alive and well. Will subscribe to the podcast.

Two quotes the hosts brought up stuck with me:

(at 15:05) "A language that doesn't change the way you think is not a language worth learning". From Alan Perlis [1], and his Epigrams in Programming (#19) [2]

(at 16:49) "it is a privilege to learn a language/ a journey into the immediate". From poet Marilyn Hacker [3]; totally captivating idea, even if not not about programming languages [4]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Perlis [2] https://cpsc.yale.edu/epigrams-programming [3] https://poets.org/academy-american-poets/winner/prizes/james... [4] https://www.enotes.com/topics/marilyn-hacker/critical-essays

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#23

Post by bidirectional »

chewxy wrote: post #15

this seems like it's very very niche (and very specific to the niche that I am interested in!)

True, but I also feel like array programming is seen as less prevalent in industry than it really is due to a lack of online community (e.g. Haskell as a language probably has an order of magnitude more content online, let alone the functional paradigm).

In any financial centre there are hundreds of (often very well-paying) jobs using these languages (well mainly k and its ilk).

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#24

Post by bidirectional »

an1sotropy wrote: post #22

I had thought of APL as something from computing pre-history, with its bizarro custom keyboard, but I learned that APL and other array languages are apparently alive and well. Will subscribe to the podcast. Two quotes the hosts brought up stuck with me: (at 15:05) "A language that doesn't change the way you think is not a language worth learning". From Alan Perlis [1], and his Epigrams in Programming (#19) [2] (at 16…

k (and the closely related q) is the main language used in industry, particularly at investment banks and hedge funds. It can be a bit of a shock to realise there are people in London earning in excess of £1000/day (pretty good for London) working in a language where well-written code looks like this[1]:

  us:{$[#i:&{(y~*K)&"*"~\*x}':x;@[x;i;:[;,"_"]];x]}
It's like discovering a whole different world of software development. Also I don't use that example to disparage k, I have come to appreciate the array language way-of-working. It just looks very alien.

[1] Real example found in a random script on https://nsl.com/: http://nsl.com/k9/sql.k

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#25

Post by mlang23 »

an1sotropy wrote: post #22

I had thought of APL as something from computing pre-history, with its bizarro custom keyboard, but I learned that APL and other array languages are apparently alive and well. Will subscribe to the podcast. Two quotes the hosts brought up stuck with me: (at 15:05) "A language that doesn't change the way you think is not a language worth learning". From Alan Perlis [1], and his Epigrams in Programming (#19) [2] (at 16…

The latest language which fits quote 1 for me was Haskell. Even though I already had some functional background (Lisp), it took me seemingly forever to actually grok purely functional programming. But once it clicked, it felt like stepping up on a ladder. My perspective on other languages changed as well.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#26

Post by klibertp »

slver wrote: post #16
rscho wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the goal in bringing in a C++ programmer was to provide an outsider view, but no, no Fortran guy. I don't think Fortran is an array language in that arrays are not the only datastructures in Fortran, though?

Is an array language a language where you only have arrays? That honestly sounds a bit odd.

No, an array language is one in which all the built-in operations are applicable to arrays. Take addition as an example:

        4 + 4
    8
In array languages the same operator can be used for arrays; or equivalently you can say that the example above sums two arrays of length 1. In J, you can do this and expect it to work:

       4 4 4 + 2 2 2
    6 6 6
This is true for all the built-ins, and many user defined operations (as long as you don't fiddle with so called rank of the verb you're defining).

Numpy is close to that, but there's still a distinction between arrays and scalars, while in array langauges that distinction is often blurred:

       4 + 1 2 3
    5 6 7
Edit: in J, you can have atoms, or scalars, but you need to box them:

       (3;4;5)
    ┌─┬─┬─┐
    │3│4│5│
    └─┴─┴─┘
but then you can't do anything with them until you unbox them again:

       (3;4;5) + 3
    |domain error
    |   (3;4;5)    +3

       (+&4) each (3;4;5)
    ┌─┬─┬─┐
    │7│8│9│
    └─┴─┴─┘
(Examples straight from J REPL)

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#27

Post by tfsh »

enriquto wrote: post #9

A bit sad that this interesting content is not available for audio/video impaired readers.

Chrome now provides on-device powered live captions (which hooks into any chrome originating audio) - chrome://settings/accessibility -> toggle "Live Captions"[1] which could help alleviate some of the limitations for audio impaired viewers

1: https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/10538231?hl=en

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#28

Post by enriquto »

tfsh wrote: post #27
enriquto wrote: post #9

A bit sad that this interesting content is not available for audio/video impaired readers.

Chrome now provides on-device powered live captions (which hooks into any chrome originating audio) - chrome://settings/accessibility -> toggle "Live Captions"[1] which could help alleviate some of the limitations for audio impaired viewers 1: https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/10538231?hl=en

> on-device powered live captions

I hate this. What were they thinking about? Why not a damn text file that people can grep?

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#29

Post by an1sotropy »

mlang23 wrote: post #25
an1sotropy wrote: post #22

I had thought of APL as something from computing pre-history, with its bizarro custom keyboard, but I learned that APL and other array languages are apparently alive and well. Will subscribe to the podcast. Two quotes the hosts brought up stuck with me: (at 15:05) "A language that doesn't change the way you think is not a language worth learning". From Alan Perlis [1], and his Epigrams in Programming (#19) [2] (at 16…

The latest language which fits quote 1 for me was Haskell. Even though I already had some functional background (Lisp), it took me seemingly forever to actually grok purely functional programming. But once it clicked, it felt like stepping up on a ladder. My perspective on other languages changed as well.

For me it was Prolog. I came to a class, which used Prolog, with a bad attitude of "whatever I can think of, I can program in C". Luckily for me I was schooled.

Re: The Array Cast – A podcast about the array programming languages

#30

Post by slver »

klibertp wrote: post #26
slver wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is an array language a language where you only have arrays? That honestly sounds a bit odd.

No, an array language is one in which all the built-in operations are applicable to arrays. Take addition as an example: 4 + 4 8 In array languages the same operator can be used for arrays; or equivalently you can say that the example above sums two arrays of length 1. In J, you can do this and expect it to work: 4 4 4 + 2 2 2 6 6 6 This is true for all the built-ins, and many user defined operations (as long as you…

It seems almost as if it'd be more useful to not explicitly expose operators as applicable to arrays, but implement SIMD optimization for operator expressions in .map(function) and something like .binaryMap(right, function) ex.

    [1, 2, 3].binaryMap([10, 10, 10], (a, b) => a * b) // Produces [10, 20, 30]
This would be easier to optimize when compiled because the expressions can be simplified and mapped to the right SIMD instructions.
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