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The Matrix Space Beta

matrix.org

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Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#21

Post by derin »

danellis wrote: post #20

> As many know, over the years we've experimented with how to let users locate and curate sets of users and rooms in Matrix. Back in Nov 2017 we added 'groups' (aka 'communities') as a custom mechanism for this - introducing identifiers beginning with a + symbol to represent sets of rooms and users, like +matrix:matrix.org. We already have a universal notation for identifying resources on the Web. Why not use that?

...because it's a different protocol with different needs that are satisfied by its own notation?

Edit: Just read Arathorn's comment above, very cool - I hadn't seen that one before.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#22

Post by Arathorn »

danellis wrote: post #20

> As many know, over the years we've experimented with how to let users locate and curate sets of users and rooms in Matrix. Back in Nov 2017 we added 'groups' (aka 'communities') as a custom mechanism for this - introducing identifiers beginning with a + symbol to represent sets of rooms and users, like +matrix:matrix.org. We already have a universal notation for identifying resources on the Web. Why not use that?

That would be https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2312, which is merged and registered with IANA and coming to a web browser near you real soon now.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#23

Post by Arathorn »

socceroos wrote: post #19
Arathorn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first cut will be using Jitsi as the engine, albeit with more appropriate UI, which gives you AEC (echo cancellation) from WebRTC and some level of AGC (normalisation). But we have plans to go far beyond that, and are very aware it’s hard work. However, pre-Matrix, the core team professionally built VoIP stacks, so we have some experience here (and our own WebRTC implementation should we need it :)

I would love to see you use Jitsi and contribute back, where possible. Also, if you move on for reasons that aren't bike-shedding then I'd love to know what the architectural/technical reasoning is.

The main reason to consider something different to Jitsi is to directly use Matrix for decentralised e2ee signalling to manage the media streams, and allow hybrid SFU and MCU models (like hangouts or zoom) rather than pure SFU like Jitsi. We do like Jitsi though and already contribute directly and indirectly - Jitsi’s E2EE is derived from Matrix, and the Matrix community just contributed a tonne of a11y fixes to it that just landed. But we’d still like a fully decentralised Matrix-native group call solution eventually.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#24

Post by Arathorn »

nerdponx wrote: post #16
Arathorn wrote: post #10

For what it’s worth, the thing I find most exciting about Spaces is that they provide a decentralised hierarchical namespace with decentralised access controls for every room (ie pubsub topic) in Matrix. So it’s like we’ve sprouted an openly federated global hierarchical filing system for freeform realtime data streams of all flavours - where people can go crazy defining their own trees, applying their own curation i…

> Discord style communities Boring and obvious, but this is probably what most people would want. Now that we've seen how good and usable the Discord model is, it's pretty much the baseline now for public chat rooms.

yup, and to be clear, that’s why we built Spaces. doesn’t stop the “wow we accidentally created the realtime read/write web” thing being cool tho ;P

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#25

Post by corobo »

Arathorn wrote: post #13
casual-dev wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once the audio chat feature is seamlessly integrated, I even consider ditching my old mumble server for it. Or not. Probably not. Our group just needs audio, with the occasional picture flood, until they get it out of their system. Since some (me include) won't use Discord due to privacy concerns, I still hope for a good and reliable self hosted alternative. A more modern user interface sure would be nice.

voice/video rooms are planned for June.

Can someone remember to post this to HN when it happens I will definitely forget

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#26

Post by spicybright »

nerdponx wrote: post #16
Arathorn wrote: post #10

For what it’s worth, the thing I find most exciting about Spaces is that they provide a decentralised hierarchical namespace with decentralised access controls for every room (ie pubsub topic) in Matrix. So it’s like we’ve sprouted an openly federated global hierarchical filing system for freeform realtime data streams of all flavours - where people can go crazy defining their own trees, applying their own curation i…

> Discord style communities Boring and obvious, but this is probably what most people would want. Now that we've seen how good and usable the Discord model is, it's pretty much the baseline now for public chat rooms.

It sucks there's no open source project that mimics discord well.

They all shoot themselves in the foot by over complicating the model. It confuses users, and makes creating stable clients hard.

I don't want a tool-box of primitives and a recipe book. I want a decentralized discord clone not owned by a giant company.

Let's start there and add the crazy stuff later.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#27

Post by sneak »

Do the Matrix clients still phone-home to some centralized server (Vector, I think it's called) as well as to matrix.org on every launch?

That's what kept me from switching last time; to me a federation client that's going to phone home to a central server is no better from a privacy standpoint than using Signal (which isn't federated but is also end to end encrypted and phones home to its centralized server), and Signal's UX is better thus far.

If that can get solved (and it seems like it can), Matrix looks like it's going to be super awesome.

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#28

Post by zamadatix »

Arathorn wrote: post #6
Evidlo wrote: post #3

So I understand why the spaces api is similar to rooms from a developers perspective, but why do they share the same # sigil as rooms and not take the old + community sigil? Spaces seem conceptually different from rooms.

Under the hood, spaces are rooms - and we made the decision to keep using a # sigil to refer to them, given the act of joining and being invited and having multiple aliases etc is the same as a room. When you say “hey, come join #community:matrix.org” does it really matter if the thing you are joining is a room or a set of rooms? That said, it’s subjective, and we went back and forth on it. My original proposal had a…

Sorunume suggested just + then later Alch-Emi made the case for just #.

https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/1772#discussio...

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#29

Post by Arathorn »

spicybright wrote: post #26
nerdponx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Discord style communities Boring and obvious, but this is probably what most people would want. Now that we've seen how good and usable the Discord model is, it's pretty much the baseline now for public chat rooms.

It sucks there's no open source project that mimics discord well. They all shoot themselves in the foot by over complicating the model. It confuses users, and makes creating stable clients hard. I don't want a tool-box of primitives and a recipe book. I want a decentralized discord clone not owned by a giant company. Let's start there and add the crazy stuff later.

To build an open source decentralised Discord alternative you need a tool-box of primitives - that’s what Matrix is. Then clients like Element (https://element.io) sit on top to fill in the rest.

We don’t think the model for Spaces is overcomplicated. In fact it’s simpler than Discord (no role-based permissions; just power levels).

Re: The Matrix Space Beta

#30

Post by danShumway »

Pretty exciting stuff, still trying to wrap my head around some of the technical possibilities outside of chat. Just to be clear, a room can be contained in multiple spaces, right? Or even, if I'm understanding it correctly, in multiple places in a hierarchy in the same space?

The Element blog post talks about setting up admin spaces and community spaces. So if rooms aren't exclusive to a single space I could build custom, private spaces that pull rooms from multiple different communities I'm a part of.

That's a really cool feature that Discord doesn't have right now.

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