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Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

zenhabits.net

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Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#21

Post by Jach »

Expecting less or nothing can indeed be calming, but it's not the only Way.

Rather than letting go of all expectation, simply shift your expectations as required by reality, and shift them without anger or regret. If one of your predicted expectations goes wrong, use Bayes' Theorem to adjust your probability functions until your expectations are right. If expectations turn out to be unpredictable, then we might wish to not have them. I don't think that is the case.

Here's more from the Tao Te Ching:

    The Master's power is like this.
    He lets all things come and go
    effortlessly, without desire.
    He never expects results;
    thus he is never disappointed.
    He is never disappointed;
    thus his spirit never grows old.
People focus their thoughts in the "results tank" but not in the "effort tank" or the "action tank". It's always "I want money!" not "I will learn a valuable skill and start working to use this skill." It's not that people have expectations, it's just that their expectations are often wrong and they don't adjust or take action.

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#23

Post by ianterrell »

gacba wrote: post #20
ianterrell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> philosophize their way to vapidity and numbness I've often felt that the Buddhist "no desires" and "no mind" concepts are akin to the trivial solution in polynomials or vector math: set everything to 0! That it's one solution does not mean there are not other, non-zero solutions.

You've fallen into the classic trap: Buddhism does not espouse nihilism (the negation of all things), Buddhism simply asserts that what you think is your reality, isn't. That's not to say that NOTHING is real or that you don't experience something, it's to say what you put stock in is very much not worth doing so.

No. My statement was short, but that's not what I said at all. And while I'm not an expert, I've read extensively on the subject (20 books?), am actually quite familiar with and fond of eastern ways of thought, and am well aware of common misconceptions.

My main point, though, is in striving to be desire-free. (To the adept, this is an upaya, a clever means of potentially pointing out the truth, not the truth itself. However, it's an oft used one.) In the case of this article, being desire-free is translated into being expectation-free. They're the same idea to the author.

I'm not discussing what reality is here, or what it is not, but am looking at the idea that desire causes suffering. I've imagined this phrased as a set of coefficients indicating quantity for all desires in the world, i.e. x1 is how much you have desire d1:

x1 * d1 + x2 * d2 + ... = Suffering

In the classic Buddhist disciplines, one eliminates desire (whether as an end goal or upaya is up to you to decide, or more appropriately, ignore). To phrase it again as math, it's the trivial solution to the equation above:

0 * d1 + 0 * d2 + ... = No Suffering

My hypothesis is that the coefficients need not be 0 to find a non-suffering answer.

(And, in fact, I do believe that's what Buddhism teaches, or shows, eventually. But all of the above holds.)

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#24

Post by ianterrell »

Jach wrote: post #21

Expecting less or nothing can indeed be calming, but it's not the only Way. Rather than letting go of all expectation, simply shift your expectations as required by reality, and shift them without anger or regret. If one of your predicted expectations goes wrong, use Bayes' Theorem to adjust your probability functions until your expectations are right. If expectations turn out to be unpredictable, then we might wish…

The concept that verse espouses is Wu Wei. It's worth anyone's time to understand. My favorite explanations of it come from Alan Watts in Tao: The Watercourse Way [0], but Wikipedia [1] is not terrible.

The other concept indicated in the last paragraph on "results tank" not "effort tank" is lust of result. There aren't as many sources discussing this topic directly, but Zen in the Art of Archery [2] is good, as is Watts' Way of Zen [3].

I highly recommend them all for anyone interested in creating things.

[0] http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Watercourse-Way-Alan-Watts/dp/0394...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

[2] http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archery-Eugen-Herrigel/dp/0375...

[3] http://www.amazon.com/Way-Zen-Alan-W-Watts/dp/0375705104

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#25

Post by jdp23 »

ianterrell wrote: post #13
gomphus wrote: post #7

I would like to toss the author of this paean to passivity into the ocean. Yes, sure, clinging on to certain kinds of unrealistic expectations, in certain contexts (particularly personal relationships), can be fatal. But this is a truism that any idiot could tell you - and in this case the post is generalized to the point of meaninglessness. Suppose you encounter someone who is openly racist, dishonest or technically…

> philosophize their way to vapidity and numbness I've often felt that the Buddhist "no desires" and "no mind" concepts are akin to the trivial solution in polynomials or vector math: set everything to 0! That it's one solution does not mean there are not other, non-zero solutions.

I don't think "no mind" is a trivial solution by any means; and Vajrayana Buddhism (as well as some other branches) do allow for desire.

Agreed that there can be other solutions as well. However I do think Buddhism has some very valid critiques of unity and duality that it's well worth paying attention to.

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#26

Post by jdp23 »

ianterrell wrote: post #23
gacba wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've fallen into the classic trap: Buddhism does not espouse nihilism (the negation of all things), Buddhism simply asserts that what you think is your reality, isn't. That's not to say that NOTHING is real or that you don't experience something, it's to say what you put stock in is very much not worth doing so.

No. My statement was short, but that's not what I said at all. And while I'm not an expert, I've read extensively on the subject (20 books?), am actually quite familiar with and fond of eastern ways of thought, and am well aware of common misconceptions. My main point, though, is in striving to be desire-free. (To the adept, this is an upaya, a clever means of potentially pointing out the truth, not the truth itself.…

It's a lot more complex than that. Check out Lama Yeshe's Introduction to Tantra: Transformation of Desire -- http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Tantra-Lama-Thubten-Yeshe...

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#27

Post by yankoff »

gomphus wrote: post #7

I would like to toss the author of this paean to passivity into the ocean. Yes, sure, clinging on to certain kinds of unrealistic expectations, in certain contexts (particularly personal relationships), can be fatal. But this is a truism that any idiot could tell you - and in this case the post is generalized to the point of meaninglessness. Suppose you encounter someone who is openly racist, dishonest or technically…

Absolutely agree. To make an assumption about the world, test it and find out you were wrong is way better than to not make any assumptions and just being passive. And what upsets me more is that such 'zen' philosophy become more and more popular. Like relax, lower your standards, don't have expectations, don't care for work too much, go play soccer. This is how western civilization fades away becoming more lazy and less competitive.

Why is it bad to constantly challenge yourself and the world around you. Humans are great because they can change the circumstances and not to surrender to them. Although often times it comes through terrible mistakes, but the process is moving forward.

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#28

Post by [deleted] »

jdp23 wrote: post #26
ianterrell wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. My statement was short, but that's not what I said at all. And while I'm not an expert, I've read extensively on the subject (20 books?), am actually quite familiar with and fond of eastern ways of thought, and am well aware of common misconceptions. My main point, though, is in striving to be desire-free. (To the adept, this is an upaya, a clever means of potentially pointing out the truth, not the truth itself.…

It's a lot more complex than that. Check out Lama Yeshe's Introduction to Tantra: Transformation of Desire -- http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Tantra-Lama-Thubten-Yeshe...

[deleted]

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#29

Post by Produce »

gomphus wrote: post #18
Produce wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a lot of trouble with this aspect too and your logic is perfectly valid but your assumptions are missing a key piece. Part of accepting things the way they are is understanding that you are an integral part of the world. This implies that not only do you have the power to influence it but that doing so is both inescapable and your duty. Telling someone that they are ignorant or incompetent is far more effective…

You have broadened my thinking on this issue, but I'm not convinced that being "attached" to the result of an intervention is necessarily harmful (let alone something that makes me a dictator!). There are many ways to positively accommodate our natural emotional responses to things being other then we would passionately want them to be, into our continued efforts to make those things so. I agree with your comments on…

Really, it depends on what your goal is. The point of enlightenment is to stop suffering, so if you're trying to do that then our emotional responses must be transcended. If you're not, then what you say makes more sense. I think that the target audience of this website is people who have the goal of transcendence.

The interesting thing is that detachment does not remove the shades of grey, it's not about removing anything and more about accepting it. It's the difference between having a favorite colour and having every colour as your favorite. In the latter case, you don't care what the weather is, you're still smiling.

In a world of wandering sadhus there wouldn't any development of culture and technology since they would all be dedicated to reaching enlightenment, which means that none of them would have attained it. It would be a world of people with the same goal which nobody has actually achieved.

I think that after enlightenment has been attained, people do the same things as we do now, just with infinitely less friction. The saying goes - "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." Some minds are inclined towards science or cultural development or computer programming and the same would apply to them.

Re: Toss Your Expectations Into the Ocean

#30

Post by gacba »

ianterrell wrote: post #23
gacba wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've fallen into the classic trap: Buddhism does not espouse nihilism (the negation of all things), Buddhism simply asserts that what you think is your reality, isn't. That's not to say that NOTHING is real or that you don't experience something, it's to say what you put stock in is very much not worth doing so.

No. My statement was short, but that's not what I said at all. And while I'm not an expert, I've read extensively on the subject (20 books?), am actually quite familiar with and fond of eastern ways of thought, and am well aware of common misconceptions. My main point, though, is in striving to be desire-free. (To the adept, this is an upaya, a clever means of potentially pointing out the truth, not the truth itself.…

Since you pointed out that you've read lots of books, I assume that means you haven't actually practiced under a teacher's guidance. Reading about riding a bike is a far cry for actually doing so.

As a practicing Buddhist for a decade, having attending multiple retreats including a 30-day one, this statement right here indicates the flaw in your argument:

In the classic Buddhist disciplines, one eliminates desire

Actually, Buddhism is about being OK with the desire, but the idea isn't to become some robotic zombie walking around. That's a classic mistake. Buddhism DOES talk about the ability to first limit and later eliminate your REACTIONS to desires, but never the desires themselves. They will always arise, no matter whether you're enlightened or not. It's a question of whether you respond to those arisings.

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