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Midair Collision over Denver

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21–30 of 237 posts

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#21
I was camping near Whistler a few years ago and heard a bang. Looked up and saw falling debris and bodies. A wing landed not far from our campsite. Turns out a glider (low-wing monoplane) was descending and the tow plane (high wing monoplane) was climbing. They were each in each other's blind spots :(

Glad to see no fatalities here; I'm an aerospace engineer in the field of airworthiness and technical risk management so my work sees a lot of accident reports and flight safety incidents. I can say with certainty these folks (esp. the metroliner crew) are very fortunate.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#22

@dang "Mid air just north of KAPA- all parties OK" is the more appropriate headline on reddit. As an aviator my stress levels are only just coming down now from seeing this headline and clicking expecting there to be deaths.

What is KAPA and do people know what it means?

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#23
post #9

I find it slightly incredible that two planes ever hit each other given the size of planes compared to the volume of space they fly in. I understand that it's simple probability (small planes, big volume, but lots of flights) but it's still amazing that it happens at all.

"Big Sky Theory"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_sky_theory

>In aviation, the Big Sky Theory is that two randomly flying bodies are very unlikely to collide, as the three-dimensional space is so large relative to the bodies. Some aviation safety rules involving altimetry and navigation standards are based on this concept. It does not apply when aircraft are flying along specific narrow routes, such as an airport traffic pattern or jet airway.

>The Big Sky Theory has been mathematically modeled, using a gas law approach. This implies that collisions of aircraft in free flight should be extremely rare in en-route airspace, whereas operational errors such as violations of formal separation standards should be relatively common. Three critical parameters are the number of flying objects per unit volume, their speed, and their size. Larger, faster objects, flying in a traffic-rich environment are more collision-prone.

http://code7700.com/big_sky_theory.htm

>It seems that there are a lot of pilots out there that believe in the "Big Sky Technique." They think the amount of airspace out there is so wide and vast, and that they are so small, that the chances of hitting another aircraft is too small to worry about. And yet history begs to differ.

The Big Sky - Kate Bush

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV7w5TaYjRA&ab_channel=KateB...

    They look down
    At the ground
    Missing
    But I never go in now

    I'm looking at the big sky
    I'm looking at the big sky now
    I'm looking at the big sky
    You never understood me
    You never really tried
Big Sky - Lou Reed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug_Z-gu7u44&ab_channel=Naoyo...

    Big sky, big sky holding up the sun
    Big sky, big sky holding up the moon
    Big sky holding down the sea
    But it can't hold us down anymore

    Big sky holding up the stars
    Big sky holding Venus and Mars
    Big sky catch you in a jar
    But it can't hold us down anymore

    Big sky, big enormous place
    Big wind blow all over the place
    Big storm wrecking havoc and waste
    But it can't hold us down anymore

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#25

It's strange that the planes were supposed to be flying parallel and yet the damage to both planes in the photos suggests a collision at right angles Remarkable that the Metroliner held together, despite that terrible damage, and they landed it safely edit: interesting photo of the landing from the Reddit thread linked elsewhere https://imgur.com/gallery/yKPOWR0

The Cirrus overshot the centerline of the runway it was supposed to land on. The common way for these situations is for the plane to be on an intercept angle towards the centerline. That's a max 30 degree angle for an instrument approach, but this was a visual approach so it could have been a sharper angle. All it takes to make this mistake in a Cirrus (and other G1000 avionics type small airplanes) is to forget 1 button on the autopilot mode. If it isn't set to capture the final approach track (either GPS or ILS) it will continue straight ahead which in this case means into the side of another airplane.

One thing that makes it more likely is that US air traffic control makes heavy use of visual approaches, and then it's allowed to point two aircraft at collision courses on the same altitude because they can see each other. The European way to do this is to have them intercept at different altitudes so if one overshoots they pass over/under. But it results in lower capacity per runway than the US system.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#26
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The probability is much higher in terminal airspace because all planes are going to or coming from the airport so they are on converging paths by definition. And better GNSS based navigation equipment is now making it more likely than 20 years ago. The historical accuracy was such that planes where often a bit offset left or right off the route giving extra separation. Now the accuracy is so good that planes going op…

Yea, this is a really good point that isn't well known. We've improved GNSS significantly, but the technology to avoid collisions hasn't been widely deployed, even though it's orders of magnitude less complicated than high accuracy GNSS on the whole So... a random dilution of precision generator could... save lives? ha.

It's not uncommon in uncontrolled airspace to set a 1 or 2 Nm offset to the right in the FMS. Then it will follow the high accuracy path but not the same as opposite traffic that's 1000ft above or below.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#27
post #14
post #9

I find it slightly incredible that two planes ever hit each other given the size of planes compared to the volume of space they fly in. I understand that it's simple probability (small planes, big volume, but lots of flights) but it's still amazing that it happens at all.

The probability is much higher in terminal airspace because all planes are going to or coming from the airport so they are on converging paths by definition. And better GNSS based navigation equipment is now making it more likely than 20 years ago. The historical accuracy was such that planes where often a bit offset left or right off the route giving extra separation. Now the accuracy is so good that planes going op…

Planes going opposite directions on the same route are meant to be at different altitudes. Altimeters have been quite accurate for a long time.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#28
post #2

ATC comms with visualization: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5tb2dVWJqc

The pilot is speaking about failed engine after the collision, like it is nothing. Fascinating. I'd be shouting something obscene in such a situation. For half an hour at least, I think.

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#29
post #22

@dang "Mid air just north of KAPA- all parties OK" is the more appropriate headline on reddit. As an aviator my stress levels are only just coming down now from seeing this headline and clicking expecting there to be deaths.

What is KAPA and do people know what it means?

It's the code for the particular airport they were about to land at. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Airport

Re: Midair Collision over Denver

#30
post #22

@dang "Mid air just north of KAPA- all parties OK" is the more appropriate headline on reddit. As an aviator my stress levels are only just coming down now from seeing this headline and clicking expecting there to be deaths.

What is KAPA and do people know what it means?

The ICAO airport code as used for navigation. They're different from the IATA 3 letter codes that most passengers know. US airports start with K, European with E (e.g. EF for Europe-France).

Often for large airports the code is very similar to the IATA code for passengers, e.g. KJFK for JFK and KSFO for San Francisco. But not always, as in EGLL for London Heathrow which is LHR in passenger codes.

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