Glad to see no fatalities here; I'm an aerospace engineer in the field of airworthiness and technical risk management so my work sees a lot of accident reports and flight safety incidents. I can say with certainty these folks (esp. the metroliner crew) are very fortunate.
Midair Collision over Denver
21–30 of 237 posts
Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#22@dang "Mid air just north of KAPA- all parties OK" is the more appropriate headline on reddit. As an aviator my stress levels are only just coming down now from seeing this headline and clicking expecting there to be deaths.
Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#23I find it slightly incredible that two planes ever hit each other given the size of planes compared to the volume of space they fly in. I understand that it's simple probability (small planes, big volume, but lots of flights) but it's still amazing that it happens at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_sky_theory
>In aviation, the Big Sky Theory is that two randomly flying bodies are very unlikely to collide, as the three-dimensional space is so large relative to the bodies. Some aviation safety rules involving altimetry and navigation standards are based on this concept. It does not apply when aircraft are flying along specific narrow routes, such as an airport traffic pattern or jet airway.
>The Big Sky Theory has been mathematically modeled, using a gas law approach. This implies that collisions of aircraft in free flight should be extremely rare in en-route airspace, whereas operational errors such as violations of formal separation standards should be relatively common. Three critical parameters are the number of flying objects per unit volume, their speed, and their size. Larger, faster objects, flying in a traffic-rich environment are more collision-prone.
http://code7700.com/big_sky_theory.htm
>It seems that there are a lot of pilots out there that believe in the "Big Sky Technique." They think the amount of airspace out there is so wide and vast, and that they are so small, that the chances of hitting another aircraft is too small to worry about. And yet history begs to differ.
The Big Sky - Kate Bush
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV7w5TaYjRA&ab_channel=KateB...
They look down
At the ground
Missing
But I never go in now
I'm looking at the big sky
I'm looking at the big sky now
I'm looking at the big sky
You never understood me
You never really tried
Big Sky - Lou Reedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug_Z-gu7u44&ab_channel=Naoyo...
Big sky, big sky holding up the sun
Big sky, big sky holding up the moon
Big sky holding down the sea
But it can't hold us down anymore
Big sky holding up the stars
Big sky holding Venus and Mars
Big sky catch you in a jar
But it can't hold us down anymore
Big sky, big enormous place
Big wind blow all over the place
Big storm wrecking havoc and waste
But it can't hold us down anymoreRe: Midair Collision over Denver
#24Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#25It's strange that the planes were supposed to be flying parallel and yet the damage to both planes in the photos suggests a collision at right angles Remarkable that the Metroliner held together, despite that terrible damage, and they landed it safely edit: interesting photo of the landing from the Reddit thread linked elsewhere https://imgur.com/gallery/yKPOWR0
One thing that makes it more likely is that US air traffic control makes heavy use of visual approaches, and then it's allowed to point two aircraft at collision courses on the same altitude because they can see each other. The European way to do this is to have them intercept at different altitudes so if one overshoots they pass over/under. But it results in lower capacity per runway than the US system.
Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
The probability is much higher in terminal airspace because all planes are going to or coming from the airport so they are on converging paths by definition. And better GNSS based navigation equipment is now making it more likely than 20 years ago. The historical accuracy was such that planes where often a bit offset left or right off the route giving extra separation. Now the accuracy is so good that planes going op…
Yea, this is a really good point that isn't well known. We've improved GNSS significantly, but the technology to avoid collisions hasn't been widely deployed, even though it's orders of magnitude less complicated than high accuracy GNSS on the whole So... a random dilution of precision generator could... save lives? ha.
Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#27I find it slightly incredible that two planes ever hit each other given the size of planes compared to the volume of space they fly in. I understand that it's simple probability (small planes, big volume, but lots of flights) but it's still amazing that it happens at all.
The probability is much higher in terminal airspace because all planes are going to or coming from the airport so they are on converging paths by definition. And better GNSS based navigation equipment is now making it more likely than 20 years ago. The historical accuracy was such that planes where often a bit offset left or right off the route giving extra separation. Now the accuracy is so good that planes going op…
Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#28ATC comms with visualization: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5tb2dVWJqc
Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#29@dang "Mid air just north of KAPA- all parties OK" is the more appropriate headline on reddit. As an aviator my stress levels are only just coming down now from seeing this headline and clicking expecting there to be deaths.
What is KAPA and do people know what it means?
Re: Midair Collision over Denver
#30@dang "Mid air just north of KAPA- all parties OK" is the more appropriate headline on reddit. As an aviator my stress levels are only just coming down now from seeing this headline and clicking expecting there to be deaths.
What is KAPA and do people know what it means?
Often for large airports the code is very similar to the IATA code for passengers, e.g. KJFK for JFK and KSFO for San Francisco. But not always, as in EGLL for London Heathrow which is LHR in passenger codes.