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Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

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Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#21

On the consumer side I can’t imagine ever giving my bank credentials to Plaid or any other company. Super unnerving that this is even a thing, it’s like the number one rule of passwords.

I agree.

I really wanted to use mint, but couldn't bring myself to give away my bank password.

I resorted to writing my own tooling using puppeteer running on my machine to automatically login to my bank accounts and download the CSV exports of my transaction data for each bank. I then normalize that transaction data, and import the data into Lunch Money.

It was a pretty big hassle to write and get working reliably(ish), but I'm super happy now that it's done. Every 2-3 weeks I run the script, and 5 minutes later all of my transactions are available in Lunch Money. I have the peace of mind of knowing that I'm not exposing my banking credentials to random third parties.

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#22

I thought duping customers [0] to think they were entering their credentials at their bank website while they were giving them to Plaid was bad. But this is some next level malice. How are they still in business? [0] https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/td-bank-files-lawsuit-agains...

They got me with that one once, the frame looked exactly like my bank's login and I thoughtlessly assumed it was some kind of federated authentication handoff. This is apparently enough of a problem that my bank is flagging them as likely fraud.

Seems like this is going to wind up in court sooner rather than later.

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#23

On the consumer side I can’t imagine ever giving my bank credentials to Plaid or any other company. Super unnerving that this is even a thing, it’s like the number one rule of passwords.

Ugh, this is how POLi Payments works in Australia, used by some businesses here and there and mostly by airlines. To do payments there, you literally give them your internet banking username and password, and they impersonate you to transfer money out of your account into the seller’s account. There are multiple bald-faced lies in their marketing (such as calling it a proxy like Opera Mini, and stating that they do not capture usernames or passwords, which… uh, hello, maybe you don’t store them, but you absolutely capture them).

I learned that this actually was what they were doing three years ago, and promptly complained to them, and was politely ignored (“Security is very important at POLi”… “Although it does not look like your traditional internet banking screen, the POLi interface is just as secure (if not more so)”…).

I’m baffled that the banks haven’t shut POLi down since it’s fundamentally predicated on ToS breaches, this man-in-the-middle attack and training users to do catastrophically stupid things, even including undermining 2FA (“give us your username and password; oh, looks like you have 2FA enabled, give us that token too?”). I complained to my bank (NAB) at the same time, and they said of using POLi Payments that “NAB does not suggest this course of action as this will be a breach of security” and that I should talk to POLi instead, as they “are unable to put a full block on this service as customers can still authorise transactions themselves at their own risk however NAB has advised in the terms and conditions of a breach this may cause”. In other words, they’re just covering their ears and ignoring it. Yet I’m sure they could block POLi without much difficulty if they actually wanted to, since all requests will be coming from POLi servers and are sure to be easily detectable (even their usage pattern would be trivial to detect). So why don’t they want to kill off this security menace?

Perhaps the worst part of it all is that Australia Post purchased POLi Payments some years back, thereby legitimising this abomination that should be terminated with prejudice.

Seriously, how do you end up with such a major player in the payments space being predicated around lies and evasion, terms-of-service violations and security malpractice? (And they even got exempted by ASIC from holding a financial services license.)

Another silly thing about it these days is that half the reason for the MitM attack (rapid confirmation that the transaction has taken place) is no longer needed, because almost all banks in Australia now support rapid transfers and linking email addresses to bank accounts, so they could just say “transfer the money to sales@example.com.au with description 12345” and reconcile it within a minute at least as an alternative to the MitM attack.

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#24

The fact that Plaid even exists, and that their core business will probably continue to thrive for another decade makes me almost certain that the US will lose its stranglehold on innovation soon. In the US, I have to pass through so many rent seekers to move some digits over (Plaid, Stripe, and Visa/MasterCard). Meanwhile Europe has PSD2 now and China AliPay/WeChat Pay. Even India, which in the past 3 months has unf…

I kind of feel like China has already passed us. The US defines "innovation" as patents but in reality innovation is so much more than that. The US feels like its slowly grinding to a halt, and when I see how China is growing, I think we're already behind. I have been shopping for machine tools, and the stuff in China isn't just cheap knock offs anymore. It's good enough for them to use in country to build bullet trains and passenger jets. Of course they do import machinery from elsewhere too, but I just get the sense that they are moving very fast. If they'd passed us on daily innovation, we wouldn't exactly know it. Its hard to quantify.

By the way I blame patents for this. Patents are a legal blockade on third party innovation. But that's how progress is made! Everyone copies everyone. You see something and you make a better version. Patents gum up the works and drive things to a standstill. They don't have this problem in China. Some people think investment won't happen without IP restrictions, but I think it will, just differently. There's no more unicorns and whales, but there's a lot more fish.

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#25

The fact that Plaid even exists, and that their core business will probably continue to thrive for another decade makes me almost certain that the US will lose its stranglehold on innovation soon. In the US, I have to pass through so many rent seekers to move some digits over (Plaid, Stripe, and Visa/MasterCard). Meanwhile Europe has PSD2 now and China AliPay/WeChat Pay. Even India, which in the past 3 months has unf…

Hell even here in Canada we have the Interac system, which from what little I know of the US banking system, is consistently 10+ years ahead of the game. I've had "Chip & PIN" on my cards since at least 2008, and distinctly remember getting my first "tap" card in ~2011 or so. I genuinely couldn't tell you the last time I inserted my card into a machine because anything under $100 (>99% of my in-store purchases) can b…

Interac E-Transfers are great, except that I wish they didn't train people to click a link from their email and type in their bank password. Sure, it redirects to a login page on your own bank's web site, but how does a non-technical user know it's not a phishing lookalike?

Really, the existing autodeposit feature would be perfect if it let you log in to your online banking and confirm pending transactions before autodepositing them. For that matter it would be nice if the email gave me a string I could paste into my online banking to get to the existing confirmation page.

It's all much better than having to link your bank account to some third party or give away your credentials though.

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#26

The fact that Plaid even exists, and that their core business will probably continue to thrive for another decade makes me almost certain that the US will lose its stranglehold on innovation soon. In the US, I have to pass through so many rent seekers to move some digits over (Plaid, Stripe, and Visa/MasterCard). Meanwhile Europe has PSD2 now and China AliPay/WeChat Pay. Even India, which in the past 3 months has unf…

"Even India, which in the past 3 months has unfortunately proven dysfunctional"

what exactly does this mean? Other countries did not have a corona virus wave?

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#27

The fact that Plaid even exists, and that their core business will probably continue to thrive for another decade makes me almost certain that the US will lose its stranglehold on innovation soon. In the US, I have to pass through so many rent seekers to move some digits over (Plaid, Stripe, and Visa/MasterCard). Meanwhile Europe has PSD2 now and China AliPay/WeChat Pay. Even India, which in the past 3 months has unf…

I think the problem with forcing financial companies to develop interoperable systems is that the rules governing the standards are often set by the regulator who really don't have any skin in the game.

If you take UPI, for instance, it's a fairly robust standard that has been developed by a non-governmental body that has been ruined by the regulator insisting that banks charge 0 transaction fees even for individuals that do a large number of transactions. This is because the regulator believes even a small fee will hamper adoption. This results in a relatively high failure rate because banks refuse to invest in servers and technologies that can handle the huge volume of transactions.

I am happy that technological standards are largely untouched by the government.

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#28

On the consumer side I can’t imagine ever giving my bank credentials to Plaid or any other company. Super unnerving that this is even a thing, it’s like the number one rule of passwords.

Ugh, this is how POLi Payments works in Australia, used by some businesses here and there and mostly by airlines. To do payments there, you literally give them your internet banking username and password , and they impersonate you to transfer money out of your account into the seller’s account. There are multiple bald-faced lies in their marketing (such as calling it a proxy like Opera Mini, and stating that they do…

That's terrible. I've never used it though, as an Australian. The name does sound vaguely familiar though. Are there any businesses that actually require you to use it? I've never seen one.

I usually pay for airlines with my credit card, now they aren't allowed to charge as large fees as they used to. Before that, I'd used BPay instead (which I still use for a lot of bills).

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#29

The fact that Plaid even exists, and that their core business will probably continue to thrive for another decade makes me almost certain that the US will lose its stranglehold on innovation soon. In the US, I have to pass through so many rent seekers to move some digits over (Plaid, Stripe, and Visa/MasterCard). Meanwhile Europe has PSD2 now and China AliPay/WeChat Pay. Even India, which in the past 3 months has unf…

I kind of feel like China has already passed us. The US defines "innovation" as patents but in reality innovation is so much more than that. The US feels like its slowly grinding to a halt, and when I see how China is growing, I think we're already behind. I have been shopping for machine tools, and the stuff in China isn't just cheap knock offs anymore. It's good enough for them to use in country to build bullet tra…

More like implementation inertia, most other countries have leapfrogged from their primitive systems directly to the latest and greatest, while in the US they are still making do with decades old technology.

Re: Plaid paid people $500 for their employer payroll logins

#30

The fact that Plaid even exists, and that their core business will probably continue to thrive for another decade makes me almost certain that the US will lose its stranglehold on innovation soon. In the US, I have to pass through so many rent seekers to move some digits over (Plaid, Stripe, and Visa/MasterCard). Meanwhile Europe has PSD2 now and China AliPay/WeChat Pay. Even India, which in the past 3 months has unf…

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