Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#21

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

Gravey wrote: post #19

grphtrdr wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.

Could you explain how decriminalization helps to defund the cartels? With legalization comes regulation and better control over the supply chain. I don’t see how decriminalization accomplishes anything other than saving court costs/costs of imprisonment.

Canada’s marijuana legalization has lead to 2 things:

1. A big (and increasing) shift into purchasing from the legal market

2. A price crash on the illegal market. Like half the dollars per ounce going into the black market.

No real sign of increased consumption. And marijuana isn’t this cool and exciting thing anymore. It’s just there if you want it, otherwise carryon.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#22

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

randompwd wrote: post #20

ianai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Want to make serious strides on illegal immigration to the US? Remove the funding of the cartels.

...or force them to quadruple down on alternative income streams such as human smuggling instead of drug smuggling.

Are the cartels facing a labour shortage or something and sticking to their core competency and opting-out of other industries?

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#23

Post by Scoundreller » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

rakhodorkovsky wrote: post #3

ggm wrote: post #2

Is there a case for RE legalising heroin: my aunt was one of a small number of GPs in London licenced to prescribe heroin to addicts in the sixties and seventies as part of a treatment programme.

Switzerland has had programs giving methadone and heroin to addicts for more than 20 years now. They've been a success; heroin use has plummeted since it's peak in the 90s. One reason for the success is that giving out free product kills the local market; many users finance their use by selling to and actively recruiting new users.

Or just straight up property crime. Breaking a window to steal $3 in change.

Not sure why/how the property insurance industry hasn’t lobbied government for this yet.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#24

Post by nickik » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #23

rakhodorkovsky wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland has had programs giving methadone and heroin to addicts for more than 20 years now. They've been a success; heroin use has plummeted since it's peak in the 90s. One reason for the success is that giving out free product kills the local market; many users finance their use by selling to and actively recruiting new users.

Or just straight up property crime. Breaking a window to steal $3 in change. Not sure why/how the property insurance industry hasn’t lobbied government for this yet.

My great ant and uncle who were wealthy and lived in Zürich would put 300Fr in cash by the entrance area of their house. The idea being that if a junkie would break in, they would just take that money and leave.

Before the legalization a common stereotype would by junkies breaking into places stealing a few things or destroying things while searching for valuables.

Not sure if this is true or a sensible defense mechanism. However it shows something about the attitude during that time.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#25

Post by Gravey » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #21

Gravey wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain how decriminalization helps to defund the cartels? With legalization comes regulation and better control over the supply chain. I don’t see how decriminalization accomplishes anything other than saving court costs/costs of imprisonment.

Canada’s marijuana legalization has lead to 2 things: 1. A big (and increasing) shift into purchasing from the legal market 2. A price crash on the illegal market. Like half the dollars per ounce going into the black market. No real sign of increased consumption. And marijuana isn’t this cool and exciting thing anymore. It’s just there if you want it, otherwise carryon.

So there is a big difference between legalization and decriminalization. I was asking about the latter.

While I can see some of the benefits of decriminalization (easier to provide help to those who need it, enforcement can target distributors rather than users, etc), it really just seems like a political half measure to me.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#26

Post by dTal » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #18

alpineidyll3 wrote: post #7

Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.

At the very minimum we should immediately legalize anything that's clearly less dangerous than alcohol (which is a lot of stuff given that alcohol is very dangerous/destructive). Marijuana, most hallucinogens, etc. Anyone who is arguing that marijuana, MDMA, etc. should not be legalized is an absolute hypocrite unless they're also campaigning to bring back prohibition of alcohol.

Devil's advocate - it is not necessarily the case that the social harm of a drug is matched by the personal harm. Arguably, the law has more business policing the social harm than the personal harm. Maybe it happens to be that alcohol - while poisonous - strengthens social bonds and is an overall net good, while cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV. Indeed, I believe this is a popular counterculture "conspiracy theory" - that the drugs that are illegal are the ones that cause the user to question the structure of society, in particular competitive capitalism.

I'm not endorsing any of the above - just pointing out that there are other reasons one might want a drug to be illegal than mere medical danger.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#27

Post by Gunax » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

nucleardog wrote: post #11

Gunax wrote: post #9

The libertarian in me says yes, but practically I know there are very few heroin users who are otherwise normal. The problem with the victimless claim is that it's literally true, but practically absurd. I am conflicted.

And yet, despite it being illegal you apparently know heroin users. So what exactly is criminalizing it accomplishing? I agree that people shouldn’t use heroin. But obviously prohibition is not working. Just to throw all the cards on the table, I'm by no means what anyone these days would describe as "libertarian". I don't think drugs should be legal for the sake of everything being legal, I think they should be lega…

I don't think you know that criminalization isn't working. You need to compare to what would happen if it were legal. Just because the number of users is > 0 does not mean criminalization doesnt work.

Certainly the biggest issue is that heroin costs money, and addicts will do anything for their dose. Making it legal--but not free--doesn't stop this. But there are other issues too (child neglect, homelessness, accosting people on the street) that even providing free drugs doesn't eliminate.

Alcohol prohibition might not have been worth it (in the sense that the curbs on freedom were too expensive) but it definitely worked in the sense of dramatically reducing alcohol deaths, diseases, and domestic disputes.

We should certainly consider making it legal--but not because zero heroin users was the goal.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#28

Post by alpineidyll3 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

awillen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very minimum we should immediately legalize anything that's clearly less dangerous than alcohol (which is a lot of stuff given that alcohol is very dangerous/destructive). Marijuana, most hallucinogens, etc. Anyone who is arguing that marijuana, MDMA, etc. should not be legalized is an absolute hypocrite unless they're also campaigning to bring back prohibition of alcohol.

Devil's advocate - it is not necessarily the case that the social harm of a drug is matched by the personal harm. Arguably, the law has more business policing the social harm than the personal harm. Maybe it happens to be that alcohol - while poisonous - strengthens social bonds and is an overall net good, while cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV. Indeed, I…

I agree you're onto something. There must be some reason society loves the war on drugs. I've always felt it was a tribal ritual of control and denial. Similar to food prohibitions that exist in many religions (kosher food, haram

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#29

Post by solipsism » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

scaramanga wrote: post #15

solipsism wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

drug use is a victimless crime That's not remotely true. Use of certain drugs (such as heroin) leads to horrible expectations for children of addicts. These children can only be thought of as victims of heroin use. Now I'm not saying that should be used to curtail the freedom of non-parents. But the experience of children shouldn't be ignored either. And I'm the first person who will agree that alcohol abuse in the h…

The question here is whether drug prohibition is a victimless crime. And it's clearly not. Besides, many _users_ of heroin are medicinal users who do not have victims (elderly patients on the NHS for example). You are conflating drug use with problematic drug use and concluding that problematic drug use is problematic, which is a tautology.

You are conflating drug use with problematic drug use

Is this like conflating speeding with problematic speeding? Some things are worth making illegal because of their potential effect on society.

That said.. in what way did I conflate those things? I specifically said Now I'm not saying that should be used to curtail the freedom of non-parents. Which clearly leaves open the possibility of carving out reasonable uses of a drug.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#30

Post by wmichelin » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #26

awillen wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very minimum we should immediately legalize anything that's clearly less dangerous than alcohol (which is a lot of stuff given that alcohol is very dangerous/destructive). Marijuana, most hallucinogens, etc. Anyone who is arguing that marijuana, MDMA, etc. should not be legalized is an absolute hypocrite unless they're also campaigning to bring back prohibition of alcohol.

Devil's advocate - it is not necessarily the case that the social harm of a drug is matched by the personal harm. Arguably, the law has more business policing the social harm than the personal harm. Maybe it happens to be that alcohol - while poisonous - strengthens social bonds and is an overall net good, while cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV. Indeed, I…

> cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV

You sound like your knowledge of cannabis is from anti-drug TV commercials. Speak for yourself, cannabis can definitely be a social drug. People are just forced to do it in the privacy of their own homes due to prohibition.